QUOTE="Curtis, post: 283507, member: 30190"]We must always remember that no one was "born again" until after Jesus was risen from the dead,
Greetings my brother in Christ. I respectfully want to share something for your consideration. I'm not necessarily rebutting your whole point but perhaps some of it may warrant reconsideration.
Now, basically speaking and with basic logic what you say makes perfect sense. Perfect sense. But then again we must remember
1 Corinthians 1:27 "
but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,"
and
Isaiah 55:9 "
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
In light of those verses let us reflect on this verse:
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Jesus is the lamb who was slain from the beginning of creation. His death and atonement and sacrifice had happened way before the world was created itself. Way before the foundation of the earth was laid. As God told Job in
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's
foundation? Tell me, if you understand." (
verse 6) "On what were its footings set, or who laid its
cornerstone--" (
verse 7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Ask yourself brother, what is the foundation or cornerstone upon which God created the world? Is God giving Job a physics lesson? Perhaps, but I doubt it. Paul tells us in
1 Corinthians 3:11 "For other
foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is
Jesus Christ.”
And ask yourself, why would the angels or some translations say sons of God, be singing for joy? Is it because God finally mastered astrophysics and worked out the intricate complexities of quantum mechanics allowing just the right amount of gravitational tension to allow the earth to float in space (physical foundation)? Possibly, but I would ask where else do we see angels singing? Well the angels sang at the birth of Jesus and angels sing or heaven rejoices every time someone is saved, or receives in faith the message of the gospel.
Luke 15:10 reads (Jesus Speaking)"In the same way, I tell you,
there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Notice Jesus did not say, there will be rejoicing, as He is speaking before his death. He states there is, meaning right now. There
is rejoicing, It is happening and has been happening.
So what does all this mean? All this means that Jesus' sacrifice for us already happened before the world started, which is why there is nothing that Satan
could do to stop it. It is also why as Jesus prayed for the cup to pass, God could not because it was already a done deal. It had already happened.
But since we live in time, we had to wait to see it actually manifested in the physical what has already happened in the spiritual from the beginning of time. For example the devil is already defeated in the spiritual. Remember God is spiritual and is not bound by time. For us we have to wait to see Satan's defeat manifested in our physical world but spiritually speaking He has already been defeated. God isn't thinking I will defeat Satan, God is saying I have already defeated Him. Likewise God wasn't saying when Jesus walked the earth, I will make a way to forgive sins, God was saying I have already done it. God is timeless so whatever God does echoes in the expanses of eternity, but it is hard for us to grasp it because we are carnal, temporal, and bound by time and our thoughts often reflect that as we also put limits on God or who He is or how he can operate.
A basic physical analogy is this. When you look up at the stars at night, you think you are experiencing a present reality but you are not. The light from the stars often takes thousands and sometimes millions of light years to reach the earth, which means that when you finally see the stars you are actually looking thousands of years into the past(in the sky) of a reality that has already happened but you a just experiencing for yourself now. You may see a star exploding in space, an explosion that happened millions of years ago, and you may see stars in space that are no longer there because they are long gone, but you are just seeing it now because of the time delay.
Like wise Jesus already made the way to God before the foundation of the earth for all who would believe, some had to wait to see or read about it but, others believed in faith the hope that was promised.
John 20:29 "
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."[/QUOTE]
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Brother, there is nothing you have said here that I disagree with. Even though Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world, the new birth could not be experienced until after Jesus had risen from the dead, there by releasing the Holy Spirit along with the
"seed" of the Word of God to cause the new birth. (1 Peter 1:23) (Titus 3:5) No one before that time had the
"love" of God shed abroad into their hearts by the Holy Spirit until Jesus was once Glorified sitting on the right hand of God. It is the
"love" of God (which is God) who
"controls" us, but not until after the new birth.(2 Cor 5:14) During Jesus's ministry his Apostles really did not understand most of what he taught them, and he knew that, but he tells them there was coming a day in which they would understand, only after the Holy Spirit had come.
John 16:12
I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now.
John 16:13 But
when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
John 7:39 Now
this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as
yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
I hope you had a great day celebrating the birth of our risen Savior
