no offense meant, this is a question i read someplace else. care to answer?

"Is Jesus really God? Did he actually claim to be God? Is there any room for ambiguity?"

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
Col 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Could someone who isn't God create the heavens and the Earth?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus was/is the Word, and the Word is/was God.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
2Ti 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Luk 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luk 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Jesus was there before Satan fell from heaven, if you believe the Biblical time-line then this was at least 4000 years before Jesus came to earth (it could have been billions of years before that, the 4000 years is a minimum). The point is, could someone who isn't God live for 4000 years or more?

Joh 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Exo 3:13 Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Notice Jesus used the same name God used back in Exodus.

Rev 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
Rev 21:7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

God the father is speaking in the verses above, he claimed to be the Alpha and Omega.
Jesus is speaking in the verses below, he also claimed to be the Alpha and Omega.

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

In one of the best known prophecies of Jesus in Isaiah, Jesus is called God.

Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Jesus' name actually means "God with us". Not "God-like", or "angel-like", or "prophet-like", but actually "GOD".

Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Mat 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
Mat 1:22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
Mat 1:23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

Joh 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Joh 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
Joh 14:8 Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Col 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
Col 2:7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Jesus is fully God, even when he is in bodily (human) form.

Eph 1:23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Joh 20:25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
Joh 20:26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
Joh 20:27 Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Joh 20:29 Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Thomas called Jesus God, Jesus did not correct him (there was no need).

Phi 2:5 Have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
Phi 2:6 Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.
Phi 2:7 Instead, he emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant, by becoming like other humans, by having a human appearance.
Phi 2:8 He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, death on a cross.

There are more verses to support this, but if these don't convince you, I'm not sure the others will either.
To answer your question, Jesus claimed to be the "I AM" (the Jews knew what this meant)
Jesus said he was the Alpha and Omega, just like the Father.
Jesus said he and the Father were one.

As you posted B-A-C

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent (Not himself but....)his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

The scripture also says we are begotten sons, but Jesus was sent into this World already being a son, meaning that this was God's actual son before coming here. Not God Himself.

Jesus Himself clearly states That God is greater than him and more Good than he is. Jesus would know more about this than you or I.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Jesus was not a free Moral Agent:

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jesus prayed to who? Sits at the right had of Who? GOD!
to many scriptures to list.

Jesus would still be dead if not for GOD.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


Jesus was here before everything was made, and with God, God's only Begotten son. Jesus Laid down his authority and power to come here.

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Jesus did not exalt himself, God exalted him.

===================================

To B-A-C:

Jesus was/is the Word, and the Word is/was God.

No, the scripture says the Word was Made flesh, not Jesus was the Word. Don't add to it.

If you Abide in me, and MY words abide in you. He separated these, as he Spoke what God Told him to speak. He never claimed to be the Word, He claimed His Word was God's Word, and they all agree as one. (John 15:7)

We are also made from the Word, and born from it, this don't make us equal or Greater than God. (1 Pet 1:23)

Luk 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luk 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Jesus was there before Satan fell from heaven, if you believe the Biblical time-line then this was at least 4000 years before Jesus came to earth (it could have been billions of years before that, the 4000 years is a minimum). The point is, could someone who isn't God live for 4000 years or more?

No question Jesus was not here at the start, (I posted the scriptures) but timing this with Satan's fall might be in error as the events in Rev also describe this as being while Jesus was here during his ministry and not from the start. Remember, Satan did not loose his authority until Jesus arrived, which fits with the Account of this in REV.

Jesus is fully God, even when he is in bodily (human) form.

No, God can't be tempted, (James) Jesus was tempted in the desert, and tempted in all ways. He was not fully God in human form.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

How was God manifest in the flesh? Jesus being full of the Holy Spirit (God) operated on this earth with God In his flesh. No different than believers filled with God in the flesh, or Power of the Holy Spirit.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Though the work of the Lord Jesus, and sending the Holy Spirit to dwell in us also, is no indication we are also God.

Jesus is Lord.

So there is no Trinity? You are saying Jesus is NOT God?

Brother Mike: No, the scripture says the Word was Made flesh, not Jesus was the Word. Don't add to it.


Exactly what part of God do you think was made flesh? The father? The spirit? Or the Son (Jesus)?

The Word was made flesh and manifested among us. If God is the Word, and the Word became flesh, it has to be talking about Jesus.

Jesus was both God and man at the same time and allowed himself to be tempted. If he could not have been tested by Satan, then he could not have overcome Satan.

Yes Jesus sits at the right hand of the father. That doesn't make him "not God".

This Mike is what you said;

The scripture also says we are begotten sons, but Jesus was sent into this World
already being a son, meaning that this was God's actual son before coming here.
Not God Himself.

What does the above mean?

What are you trying to say??

Not God himself ???

B-A-C

The Word was made flesh and manifested among us. If God is the Word, and the Word became flesh, it has to be talking about Jesus.

Correct, and so did everything else you see, it came from the Word. Jesus and the Word agree as one. I don't see your point. This does not point to God and Jesus NOT being two different beings, you also did not bother to answer all my other scriptures.

Trinity:

Talk Jesus is a great place to recover yourself from Man made Doctrines, and spiritual air castles. Trinity, and Slain in the Spirit are Doctrinal mumbo jumbo. The words may be fine for closed thinking Groups, my Hope is that we can actually move on and learn truth here.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Yes Jesus sits at the right hand of the father. That doesn't make him "not God".

Here is the problem B-A-C, you just can't make blanket statements like this and expect that to be proof of anything because you believe them to be so, and it's what you have been taught. You can't be someone and also sit at their right hand. That is not possible.

Jesus Himself said God was Greater than him. I am pretty sure Jesus was not having an identity crisis.

If we Believe something in the Word as True, then ALL the scriptures must fit perfectly, if they don't, and you have no explanation for it, then it's the Word that corrects us, not us correcting the Word or just assuming we are right regardless of what the Word says.

Doing so will forever keep you from growing and learning in the Word, and that is a bad place to be, as many are in that very place.

The Word says clearly that Jesus was Begotten from God, that means he came from God. It was God's only Begotten son. So, God was here first.

The Word also says we are Begotten, but only through the Work Jesus did, that makes us Begotten from the word also, but does not make us God's only Begotten son.

If Jesus was here from the start with God, and Made flesh, that does not make him any different in thinking and action from his father, they are one.

When God said, Let US make man in OUR image.............who do you think he was talking to???

We are in the express image of God, like God, like Jesus, unlike the angles who where created to serve.

This makes Jesus our brother, big brother.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

God gave us to Jesus, made a agreement with Jesus, we are not God's Brother, we are the Lord Jesus brothers and sisters.

God is the father!!

Now explain all these scriptures............. just don't be in shock that I don't believe Jesus is God, and let doctrine get in the way.

I am also here to learn, and if you can make these (few-being lots more) scriptures to fit that God and Jesus are the same Being (Not one in the same, agreeing on the same thing) I am all ears.

Jesus is Lord.

This Mike is what you said;

The scripture also says we are begotten sons, but Jesus was sent into this World
already being a son, meaning that this was God's actual son before coming here.
Not God Himself.

What does the above mean?

What are you trying to say??

Not God himself ???

Begotten from means to come from, that would make them different beings.

I am asking for scriptures that explain the ones I posted. I am looking for explanations to what I have written if Jesus and God are the same being.

Jesus Is Lord.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

There is only one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Gen 1:1
Who created the heavens and the earth?

Col 1:16
Who created the heavens and the earth?

John 1:3
Who created the heavens and the earth?

All 3 verses are talking about the same person.

Phi 2:6 Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.
Phi 2:7 Instead, he emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant, by becoming like other humans, by having a human appearance.

He "disabled" some of his God qualities to become like us. He emptied himself and became like other humans while he was on the earth. He was tempted like we were.

Mat 1:23
Who's name means "God with us"?

Isa 9:6
Who is the child born who is called "God" here?

The answers to both the questions above are the same person.

The son and the father are not the same being. They are two different manifestations of one entity.
Is the yoke alone an egg?
Is the shell alone an egg?
Is the egg-white alone an egg?
No - it takes all 3 parts to make an egg.

The father is greater than the son? I have no argument with this, in fact I would be willing to say the reason the son came is to get us to the father. However what does which part of God is greater than another part have to do with which part is NOT God?

Scripture also says Jesus is God's ONLY begotten son, if this true, then none of us can be Jesus' brothers. The thing here is context. We can be sons of God in one context, but there is only ONE begotten son.

Jesus isn't my brother. He is my God and my savior.
John 20:28

If any brother can save me, or I can save myself.. why do I need Jesus?

Why did Jesus call himself "I AM"?
Why did Jesus call himself the Alpha and Omega?

Like you said, he wasn't having an identity crisis. He knew he was God and the son of God.

If a black man has a son, is he not black?
If a hispanic man has a son, is he not hispanic?
If God has a son, is he not __________ (fill in the blank).

B-A-C, Jesus called us Brothers.....Take that up with him.

The son and the father are not the same being. They are two different manifestations of one entity.
Is the yoke alone an egg?
Is the shell alone an egg?
Is the egg-white alone an egg?
No - it takes all 3 parts to make an egg.

It also takes two humans to make another human, that makes a family. Each different parts, but all family. That is an old arguement there, lets do fresh ones.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega...... yet.

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

We have a separation here of two different entities, God GAVE to Jesus ALL THINGS, HE DID NOT GIVE THEM TO HIMSELF

I can post many more scripture if you like, but want to keep it simple.

Jesus and God are one, but we are one in him, that don't make us God though.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus never deceived anyone but made it very clear that God sent him.

My point is this, any sensible person reading the word would conclude that Jesus and God are two separate entities, but are one in each other. You can call it egg yoke, and shell if you like but still an egg.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Is God so silly he makes intercessions on our behalf for himself? Not hardly.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Is God a mediator of himself? Not hardly.

I'll stop here.

We can go to say that God is Jesus but with a different function, but many scriptures do not support that or would even make sense to someone that was just reading the bible. I would be better to say Jesus was here at the start, with God, and sits at God's right hand being a mediator between us, and God.

Being God's Begotten son, does not make Jesus any different than God but having a different function. A son can be one in his own father, and like the father.

The bottom line is not all these scriptures can be answered in a reasonable way. We just have to accept some man made Trinity doctrine at face value, and I can't ignore scriptures.

To say that we fully understand this relationship and how it worked in the realm of the spirit is just foolishness. Anybody that claims to know with so many different scriptures has A) Heard God himself on it. B) Is just fooling themselves they know.

Even the Word God is not bible, it's German, and the real meaning lost in translation unless we see what many different names he went by.

So, I am not going to pretend I fully grasp this, I just have scriptures that point to other things than what people blindly follow without close examination. We are here to learn.

Jesus Is Lord.