Originally Posted by misesfan

Then the consideration that information actually increased when developing the cell is the question that scientists cannot answer using evolutionary models. Information never increases without an intelligent agent causing it.

Except, of course, that it does. Google "genetic algorithm".

Reality seems to disagree with your assertions. Reality > your assertions.




Lurker

Originally Posted by David777

You are the first proof namith. Your intellect is way beyond what
is required for so called evolutionary survival. Science has no
explanation for the intellectual powers that man is endowed with.

Um. . .yes it does - a big complex brain. Obviously increased intelligence has a huge evolutionary payoff given our populations expansion across and even beyond our planet.

Secondly, you are not governed by instinct namith. You are
constantly making decisions regarding your behavior. Animals
do not function at this level, they are driven by instinct and they
do not depart from this pattern.

That's absolutely false, even invertebrates regularly learn new behaviors. There is even convincing evidence that critters as lowly as ants have decision-making capacities.

Thirdly namith you have an incredible ability to communicate.
This communication you conduct with others of your species is a miracle in itself.
A light year beyond what is needed for the regeneration of our species and its survival.

Lots of other creatures have complex forms of communication. Evolution does not at all require that adaptations merely allow for "the regeneration of the species".

This evidence is. . .

. . .utterly worthless in a discussion with someone who knows much of anything about animal behavior.




Lurker

I'm trying to understand where this conversation is going, because it seem fruitless and endless.
Each person state their closing argument so this thread can be finish with.

Thank you.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

I feel that our right to free expression is being smothered.

If you are going to close this thread I will finish with a small
quote on human and chimp genes. The internet site is titled
"Your can't make a monkey out...".

Chimpanzees seem almost human, and scientists have maintained for decades that chimps are, in fact, 98.5 percent genetically identical to humans.


But the results of a new study call that figure into question, with a finding that there are actually large chunks of the human and chimp genomes that are vastly different.


Researchers at a company called Perlegen Sciences in Mountain View, California, used a powerful biological computer chip that can scan the entire genetic makeup of an organism, that is, its whole genome. The results, published in Monday's issue of Genome Research, show that chimps and humans are much more different than scientists previously thought.


"The study shows the richness and texture of these differences we have with our close neighbors in the evolutionary tree," said Richard Gibbs, director of the Human Genome Sequencing Center at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, who was not involved in the Perlegen study.


It is these differences that are important namith.

Going back to the original gist of this thread: it's my position that saying there is "evidence" for the existence of God is simply naive. Tiny particles don't appear to require a God to simply pop into existence; energy needs no supernatural intervention to expand and settle down into matter; matter requires no deity to form stars, moons, asteroids, and planets; planets don't need a God to form atmospheres, organic molecules, or even (apparently) organic molecules that can make copies of themselves. Self-replicating molecules don't need the supernatural to make variations of themselves; and these variations require only natural processes to evolve more and more complex systems.

This is, doubtless, a history that many Christians would reject, nor is it one that I find particularly comforting, but this is the history recorded within the very fabric of our universe. The hard truth is that reality pays no heed to our preferences or the comforting fables we would rather believe about it.




Lurker

If we are, indeed, making closing statements, then I shall present the following:

I do not see evidence of God around me. I see evidence of natural processes, the results of natural laws. I see questions to which we do not yet know the answers, which cry out for scientific investigation to determine them. The idea that God is "necessary" as the answer to these questions has been pushed smaller and smaller throughout history, as more and more things have become understood. I see no reason for this trend to stop.

As rizen's replies seem to indicate, this isn't really the community for a discussion like this. If you wish to continue discussing ideas of this nature or talking with differently-minded people, seek out places online where you can do so. I will not post links to anything, as I don't have the post count required and I feel that this would not be encouraged. Good luck to everyone for your personal journeys, and may the Force be with you.

Originally Posted by David777

I feel that our right to free expression is being smothered.

It's not about freedom expression, rights and all of that. It's getting to the point, having a goal to this conversation and coming to a conclusion. It's not about pride or being heard, or needing to give ones opinion. It should always boil down to truth and humility.

Are you reading their responses to you ?

The problem with christians in debates they speak from their own knowledge. You have to be an authority on a subject, study, study, study..not post a link here and there.

We might think atheist are stupid, but trust me they know us better than we think. You must learn your opponent, their beliefs , origin, leaders character of the belief/movement, study it and debunk it. The world spends all their time studying us. We don't do the homework and expect people to take us serious. They don't call christians ignorant just to be mean. I've met my share of ignorant folks in the church.

Just because we call something the truth does not make it truth for others automatically. Through love, patience, knowing your word.

One current theory is that we originated in Africa, I doubt this is true. I prefer the Middle East not just because the Bible says so.

What does this mean? Please give me the bible verse that says we do not originate in africa. Then give me the verse that states we originated in the middle east. You preferring the middle east over africa does not make it truth.

Everybody have rights and want to express something, but it must be done in order while abiding to the rules of the community they are in. If you check the forum rules you'd see no debates are allowed. It's not to silence anyone, but it filters out the fruitless conversations. There's private messaging and emails if members wish to talk freely.

Kindly pray before posting, I do hope as a brother in christ you understand what I'm saying and put that before your feelings of not having your way, your rights to speak and being smothered.

The Bible verse is in the Old Testament which provides the location for the origin of humanity. It is Genesis 2:10-15.

Do you wish to debate this?

I am rather surprised that you are unaware of the location of Eden.

I have an interest in Creation Science, but this is only an interest.

In fact, an easy way to pinpoint the origin of man is to look at satellite photos.
It is here that the wonder of modern technology allows us to notice where the terrain has been utterly devastated.

Which is what man does to the environment over a period of time. Alas, the Middle East wins hands down in this contest.

Where is the oldest known city that is uninhabited, Jericho in the Jordan rift valley close to the route from the valley to Jerusalem is a contender. When first mentioned in the Bible it was inhabited by Canaanites and today it is an Arab town. At least three separate settlements have existed at or near the current location for more than 11,000 years.

Where is the oldest inhabited city, one leading contender is Damascus. This is also in the Middle East.

Evidence is overwhelming for the Middle East rizen1.

I can go on and on, but I am not sure if you are interested?

Please reply.

I do notice that they are rather unkind in there responses.

That is not abnormal for those who have not received the
revelation of Jesus Christ.

I just ignore the dribble.

Many folk think that Science is clear cut and precise.

In reality this is not the case, many theories and ideas
abound and compete. In the end very little is known
about the past, matter or even the universe.

Most often the evidence for an idea is slim at best, but fashion
dictates what the current theory will be. Or as some propose
what the evidence may indicate.

Science is not what most would think it is.

You did say,

Kindly pray before posting, I do hope as a brother in christ you understand what I'm saying and put that before your feelings of not having your way, your rights to speak and being smothered.

I do not understand, I prefer to debate, I do feel oppressed.
I ask that Jesus Christ open your eyes to the tremendous
onslaught that is overwhelming Christians all over the World.

Most Christians do not understand that a lot of what Science
claims is not necessarily scientific. It is conjecture. I hoped that
by offering different opinions that others may read and notice
what Science claims is not often what is.