Originally Posted by s.i.e

Listen to your reasoning: you say you accept abiogenesis "tentatively" because it is the best availalbe explanation? Well, so was a flat-earth, or the idea that the sun revolved around the earth, or blood-letting, for long periods of time...until it was disproved. You didn't need faith to believe in a flat-earth, you just accepted it as fact because it was the best available explanation....yet unknowingly, you were led down the primrose path.

I entirely accept that the theories seeming likely to me may one day be shown to be incorrect. That's what makes my way of thinking more highly validated than yours. If evidence supports another position and contradicts the one I hold, I will change it. As things stand, evidence appears to support the theories currently held by the scientific consensus.

As for the Big Bang being, as you say, "well supported by all available observations of the universe"...respectfully, that is just hogwash. You say you hold science high...but unless or until you can put the Big Bang idea through the scientific-method, and make it repeatable and observable...you are simply shrouding yourself from the fact that it is simply a theory. That's why it's appropriately called a theory.

Evidence for the big bang: general homogeneity of the universe, the fact that the universe is expanding in all directions, the Cosmic microwave background, etc.

Do you know what a theory is? Gravity, germ theory, atomic theory, heliocentrism; those are all theories.

Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts

Trying to literally interpret spiritual things will cause us to miss the true spiritual message and focus on concocting literal explanations which don't hold up.

So what actually happened? Did Jesus exist? By what standard do we determine which things happened and which didn't? And by what standard do we determine what the spiritual meaning of these things are? I could do this with any work I pleased. Harry Potter, Atlas Shrugged, The Dark Tower; they're all filled with deep spiritual messages that we should give our lives to. How can anyone possibly disprove it?

Out of curiosity: Lurker, what do you believe?

Originally Posted by s.i.e.

Lurker - I apologize for assuming you didn't believe in God.

Don't worry about it. Things happen.

Dealt with decades ago, mmm?

Yes.

Again, it takes a lot of faith to believe in the hominid,

Given that you are a hominid I find this rather hard to believe.

or the Kennewick Man imo.

What you think Kennewick Man has to do with evolution is a bit of a mystery to me.

I've never met a person who desired to be wrong, nor have you.

Unfortunately I have, many times. It usually involves some form of cognitive dissonance and is, unfortunately, prevalent among evangelical Christians. Typically I see this desire to be wrong expressed about evolution where, despite having been educated thoroughly about what evolution actually is people repeatedly mischaracterize it and/or the evidence supporting it (though this is by no means confined to the topic of evolution).




Lurker

Originally Posted by namith

Out of curiosity: Lurker, what do you believe?

Personally, I believe that God created a universe in which the fundamental laws of nature made the natural rise of not only life, but intelligent life, inevitable. That being said, the more I come to understand how the universe works the harder it is for me to accept that this vast cosmos is all here for one particular version of one particular religion of one particular species on one particular planet.

There is simply no evidence and no need for a divine creator to be found in nature, even at the most fundamental level of the origins of the big bang. The vast amounts of physical evidence embedded in our universe, the inconsistency of Christian beliefs throughout the centuries, and the consistent failure of the church to be on what we now recognize as the "right" side of issues both moral and scientific have led me to conclude that either:

• God created a deceptive universe/scripture
• There is no God
• Many of the things we believe about God aren't actually true

Currently I'm leaning heavily towards that last conclusion. The tipping point for me was not accepting evolution, it was when I truly examined what I wanted from my faith - the hard truth, or the comforting fable.

So. . .do I believe in God? I think so. . .am I a Christian? That is a bit more of a work in progress.

". . .But knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable."
Carl Sagan, The Pale Blue Dot

Lurker

Interesting arguments I must say.

You did say,

God created a deceptive universe/scripture
There is no God
Many of the things we believe about God aren't actually true

Firstly, why would the Universe appear deceptive?

Lurker, yours is the kind of belief I find tenable, though I don't actually believe it myself. God as creator, particularly in setting up natural laws that play out into the universe, makes some sense.

So what actually happened? Did Jesus exist? By what standard do we determine which things happened and which didn't? And by what standard do we determine what the spiritual meaning of these things are? I could do this with any work I pleased. Harry Potter, Atlas Shrugged, The Dark Tower; they're all filled with deep spiritual messages that we should give our lives to. How can anyone possibly disprove it?

I don't know what actually happened because as far as know I was not there in my present form.
Did Jesus exist?Again I wasnt there so I can't say for certain.
However words attributed to Jesus do exist and so I can say "the word" exists.So he does exist presently in my mind as his word.

And by what standard do we determine what the spiritual meaning of these things are?

There are keys to unlocking the different levels of scripture.

Example:
Jesus said in John 10:8:All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
This tells me that the prophets before Jesus may have had some wrong conclusions about the nature of God and life itself.

Also:
Jesus said in John 16:12, I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

As for Harry Potter,the dark tower or even the spaghetti monster,I suppose if many men believed them and contemplated on them they might add to them for a few hundred years then they would probably contain some wisdom to be extracted.As they are now they do contain some spiritual wisdom but to call it deep would be stretching it.

If some one found something in those books that helped them in life why would I want to disprove it?

Grace and Peace

Namith, I just realize there's no post in the new members section introducing yourself, and this thread seem to be the only one you post in.

I've read the red** ( you know the site )comments not sure if you're part of the discussion bashing christians and insulting our intellect. If those people really think they are enlightened or evolved then they need to broaden their vocabulary. It's easy to curse and trash talk people when they are not aware of it. I careless about the insults and if I too had nothing better in my life to do, I'd join the discussion and let them know what I think about them. It's easy to hide behind a computer and call christians ignorant, but using the same breathe and energy to type such vile foolishness they themselves are being ignorant.

You found talkJesus from that discussion. Now we welcome everyone but we do not tolerate foolishness or games. We want honest people who enjoy learning together. Not those who take what is found on this site to only trash it on another. I'm not accusing you of being involved in that discussion, because I can not prove it. However you made it clear when registering to this site how you found us.

I want to know your motives on this site ?
There are members here who will go out of their way to help you and answer you. It would not be fair if their help is not what you seek. The site is open to anyone, but please respect this is a christians site, based on the bible and our love to God. There's no persuading us to believe anything else. I would not join the discussion that brought you here to debate them, because I know I can not persuade them to follow Jesus.



The world have chosen Aleister Crowley as their savior, living by his words.." Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

Christians have chosen Jesus as their savior, living by his words,
John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 15: 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Matt22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

There is no christian nation or government that exist today, not every person who claim to be a christian is. So please do not use the crusades to hold God accountable.

Be bless,hope you get the answers for your life journey.

To ThisCross: So what do you actually believe? And in what ways does that inform your actions? For example, would you ever attempt to pass legislation preventing people from doing something you believed was wrong or vote against a political candidate based on their faith?

I ask because I suspect your beliefs might be cool in my book.



To rizen1: You should be able to find any comment or link I've posted on that site pretty easily. I was linked to this thread, which was presented, at least initially, as a list of arguments to use against atheism, to which I presented a rebuttal. The conversation has gone on from there. I am unlikely to contribute to other threads, as I would not wish to intrude on your community anywhere other than this thread, which I interpreted as an invitation to argument/discussion.

To ThisCross: So what do you actually believe? And in what ways does that inform your actions? For example, would you ever attempt to pass legislation preventing people from doing something you believed was wrong or vote against a political candidate based on their faith?

As a child they told me that God could see all, knows all and knows the number of atoms in the universe and the number of hairs on my head.
I thought,"yeah right,adults sure are stupid".

Then I learned computers and how to design video games and first person shooter platforms and thought to myself,"maybe adults weren't so stupid".
I am God of the virtual world I create.I know every atom because I put them there.I would be omnipresent,omnipotent and could change timelines through the save game feature.If the artificial intelligence characters (known as NPC's) were very sophisticated I could try to tell them about me and my world but it would not make much sense to them.If I told them I made them through my keyboard and mouse they could only relate it to keyboards and mouse's that are known to them in their world.

So,how do I know that I'm not sitting in a gaming chair 500 years from now and am at this time experiencing a simulated environment.We might have the technology by then be able to live a simulated full life in just a few hours of real time.

I believe scripture defines things we cannot know apart from revelation by some means.Science has described our universe as a possible annex of some other thing(perhaps a manifold universe).

Electricity is a good example to me because I am a generator technician.In my training I always struggled to understand how electricity worked and never felt I understood.However I aced all tests and was even able to correct my teachers when they were in error.
I finally figured out that no one understands electricity(except maybe Tesla). I am still not convinced electricity is not man made.The placebo efffect coupled with the observer effect and the dilligent study of men seeking answers could have well created it.
As a scientist this makes little or no sense.However as a scientist life itself makes no sense.Life totally defies entropy,the placebo effect defies physics itself.

Jesus(at least the words attributed to him) defied all known religion of his time.
John 16:12, I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now

I would venture to say that if the things not yet revealed were suddenly to be known that he would again be rejected by religion.
I came to study scripture because of witnessing several totally illogical miracles and I wanted answers.In other words I'm one of those who believe because I see the results or outcomes of believing.I cannot yet say I understand what it is I see that is why I continue my research.

BTW,Jesus said blessed is he who does not see and yet believes.

Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts

Electricity is a good example to me because I am a generator technician.In my training I always struggled to understand how electricity worked and never felt I understood.However I aced all tests and was even able to correct my teachers when they were in error.
I finally figured out that no one understands electricity(except maybe Tesla).

Ummmm, what? Electricity is relatively well understood. Electrons are charged particles that move from high voltage to low voltage. This voltage is often generated from chemical effects (electrons like certain states in relation to the atoms they're involved with). Relativity also plays a part, in the form of magnetism.

Life totally defies entropy

Life generates huge amounts of entropy, and takes in huge amounts of energy to do so. It in no way violates entropy.

the placebo effect defies physics itself.

Ummm, no it doesn't.

Check the wikipedia page on placebo, it has a section on the mechanism.

The human body has healing powers, controlled largely by your brain. Naturally, different brain states can influence how effective your healing powers are.