1 Timothy 1–5

In Chapter 2, verses 3-6, Paul sets aside any rational belief in which only certain people are chosen by God for salvation.

"… God our Savior … desires ALL MEN [emphasis added] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL [emphasis added], the testimony borne at the proper time."

Obviously, all men will not accept the free but priceless gift of life, forgiveness, salvation.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life" (John 5:39-41).

Be it pride or arrogance, none can claim ignorance, for the seeking heart will find his answer:

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?
Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him (Matthew 7:7-11)!

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

So we see from these passages the certainty that God's will for all men is their salvation. And He has provided the way—one mediator for all, Christ Jesus.

God opened the door to all who would come (1Ti 2:4). So while predestination is indeed a fairly prominent feature in the Epistles and not to be dismissed it is according to the foreknowledge of choices we make (1Pe 1:2), predestinated according to those He called (Rom 8:29-30) and man can chose reject the call of God (Isa 66:4).
Al these factors fit together nicely when you consider all the information the scriptures give on the subject and predestination fits together with free will quite nicely. God paid the price to save all men (1Jn 2:2) and wills that all be saved and yet not all will come.

Originally Posted by RJ

1 Timothy 1–5

In Chapter 2, verses 3-6, Paul sets aside any rational belief in which only certain people are chosen by God for salvation.

"… God our Savior … desires ALL MEN [emphasis added] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL [emphasis added], the testimony borne at the proper time."

Obviously, all men will not accept the free but priceless gift of life, forgiveness, salvation.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life" (John 5:39-41).

Be it pride or arrogance, none can claim ignorance, for the seeking heart will find his answer:

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?
Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him (Matthew 7:7-11)!

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

So we see from these passages the certainty that God's will for all men is their salvation. And He has provided the way—one mediator for all, Christ Jesus.

I am sorry I dont believe you have accomplished what you set out to do.

Originally Posted by Faith4Bride

I am sorry I dont believe you have accomplished what you set out to do.

That's fine.

Originally Posted by Boanerges

God opened the door to all who would come (1Ti 2:4). So while predestination is indeed a fairly prominent feature in the Epistles and not to be dismissed it is according to the foreknowledge of choices we make (1Pe 1:2), predestinated according to those He called (Rom 8:29-30) and man can chose reject the call of God (Isa 66:4).
Al these factors fit together nicely when you consider all the information the scriptures give on the subject and predestination fits together with free will quite nicely. God paid the price to save all men (1Jn 2:2) and wills that all be saved and yet not all will come.

I like this, " when you consider all the information that God gives you" !

[QUOTE=RJ;164327]1 Timothy 1–5

"… God our Savior … desires ALL MEN [emphasis added] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL [emphasis added], the testimony borne at the proper time."

Obviously, all men will not accept the free but priceless gift of life, forgiveness, salvation.

I"m sorry but scripture does say that all men (not just a few) will accept the "free but priceless gift of life, forgiveness, and salvation". It is true that not all men will be in the church, but scripture clearly teaches that all men will be saved at the end of the harvest (end of the final age before Christ turns over the Kingdom to the Father). The church is merely the first fruits of the harvest. Why do you believe that God will not harvest the remaining crop? Even the poorly translated scripture you quoted above says that God will save all men. The verse when properly translated reads "...will have all men be saved and ...". But even if it should read "desires" as your translation says, all men will still be saved. Since when does God Almighty not get His desires??? Scripture (not mainstream Christianity) clearly teaches that God will have ALL desires:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. (Darby)

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee. (Darby)


The scripture you quoted above continues on and adds a key piece of information. Here is the full thought of that verse in the KJV:



1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


The salvation of mankind does not happen all at once, but it will happen in "due time". The church will be saved first and will rule and reign will Christ. But the church will also be used in the final age (I call it the Lake of Fire age) to bring in the final and full harvest of mankind as represented by the Feast of Tabernacles. Mainstream Christianity cannot see past the Feasts of weeks (or First Fruits) when the Church receives its salvation at the 1st resurrection. God's plan for man continues on much further and is not complete until all men are saved. Christ will not lose anyone. Have you never looked closely at these verses:



John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


The Father has given "all things" to Christ which most certainly includes all men. And John 6:37 states that everyone that the Father has given to Christ will come to Christ and He will not cast them out.



Again in John:



John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

All men will be drawn to Christ (in due time) and will be raised up at the last day. The "last day" occurs at the time represented by the Feast of Tabernacles and not when Christ returns for His bride, the church. And what is Christ saying to those lost souls at the Feast of Tabernacles? Here is what He says:

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The last day occurs at the end of the Lake of Fire age prior to Christ turning over the Kingdom to the Father. What does Christ say at that time? The same thing of course, only this time, scripture shows us that His Bride, the church will be saying it with Him:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Christ was given the mission to "save the world" and Christ will not fail to save the world. However, the mainstream church teaches that Christ will fail and fail miserably. If God is love and love does not fail, how can Christ fail to save the world??? He can't fail and won't fail.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails;


And this parable teaches the same thing:




Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The "woman" is God the Father, the "leaven" is the world and Christ is the "three measures of meal". Christ is currently hidden in the world but just like leaven, He will not cease His work until the whole is leavened (all men saved). He came to save the world and He will do just that. The mainstream church just does not have the faith to believe it nor do they understand His plan to accomplish His mission.



I could go on and on with more scriptures but I have found that if a person will not believe these few scriptures I quoted above, then they will not believe no matter how many more I point out.



I'm sorry I have been so direct in my statements above and I hope I have not offended you but the mainstream teaching of "eternal hell" for those who reject Christ now is so hideous that I always get passionate when I refute it. I would love to share more scriptures with you on this subject if you have an interest to know more.



May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

I was not offended in the least but I am in total disagreement with you on this issue.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Jesus Himself taught more about hell than anyone. I have known one who died cursing God- that one will not dwell eternally in His presence.
To refuse the call of God is quite scriptural and is rooted in the freewill that God has given man:
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Originally Posted by Boanerges

I was not offended in the least but I am in total disagreement with you on this issue.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Jesus Himself taught more about hell than anyone. I have known one who died cursing God- that one will not dwell eternally in His presence.
To refuse the call of God is quite scriptural and is rooted in the freewill that God has given man:
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Dear Boanerges,
Yes, to refuse the call of God will leave a person lost. But scripture clearly says that everyone in due time will accept the call of Jesus.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Do you not believe this double witness of scripture I just quoted?


Those persons in the symbolic "lake of fire" will be judged and caused to repent & accept Christ, just as those in His church have previously done. There is no scripture that places a time limit on Christ's mercy. There is however, a time limit on entering His church which is a special blessing bestowed upon those persons whom Christ has chosen. Do you not remember these scriptures:

Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;

1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.


Christ is the "Saviour of all men" but He has given a special salvation to those who believe first. How can Christ be the Saviour of all men if He do not save all men? To believe what you believe, a person must add the word "potential" to the verse - "who is the potential Saviour of all men, ...". Christ said not to add words to scripture, even if you are only doing it in your mind. Can't you objectively read this verse in 2 Tim and understand that it simply says that Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially those who believe but not exclusively.


As far as your comment on "free will", it is contrary to scripture. It is merely a church tradition. Scripture clearly says that God controls us and our wills. Yes, we have a will but it is not "free". Below is what scripture says about our wills and who controls them:




John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. (Darby)

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.


Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.


Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?


I have discussed God's plan for the Salvation of mankind and our lack of "free will" many times in the past with many other people. Those who have believed that Christ is NOT the Savoiur of all men and that man is free to do and think as he pleases, simply have not believed the scriptures even when confronted with them. They have allowed church tradition to rule supreme over scripture - just as the Pharisees in Jesus' time allowed their traditions to rule over scripture. It is no different now. If you don't have a love for the truth and search for it as for hidden treasure, the Lord will not allow you to find it.




Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.



If the knowledge of God was laid out for the world to see as the mainstream church would have you believe, then why does scripture tell us to "search for it as for hidden treasures"??? God has hidden His truth and only reveals it to those HE chooses. We have no say in the matter. God rules supreme in all matter of this world (His world and His creation). The mainstream church raises man up to where man can overcome God's will. Man has no such power. Scripture says that God will save all men through His unfailing love but the mainstream church says that most men will reject His love and never come to Christ. I believe God and the scripture. In God's eyes, man is nothing. God will do all that He pleases to do.



Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Darby)



God is in complete control over His creation. Nothing happens without God causing it to happen. NO ONE can go against God's will and subvert it. God created Satan to be evil and to do all the evil he does. Satan was not a mistake nor are all the people who currently reject God. All people will be saved in accordance with God's plan and in His timing - not one second early and not one second late. Where O' where is our faith to believe God and His Word? It is all but gone. No wonder Christ questioned whether or not He would find any faith on the earth when He returns.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

Originally Posted by Joe in Arkansas

Dear Boanerges,
Yes, to refuse the call of God will leave a person lost. But scripture clearly says that everyone in due time will accept the call of Jesus.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Do you not believe this double witness of scripture I just quoted?


Those persons in the symbolic "lake of fire" will be judged and caused to repent & accept Christ, just as those in His church have previously done. There is no scripture that places a time limit on Christ's mercy. There is however, a time limit on entering His church which is a special blessing bestowed upon those persons whom Christ has chosen. Do you not remember these scriptures:

Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;

1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.


Christ is the "Saviour of all men" but He has given a special salvation to those who believe first. How can Christ be the Saviour of all men if He do not save all men? To believe what you believe, a person must add the word "potential" to the verse - "who is the potential Saviour of all men, ...". Christ said not to add words to scripture, even if you are only doing it in your mind. Can't you objectively read this verse in 2 Tim and understand that it simply says that Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially those who believe but not exclusively.


As far as your comment on "free will", it is contrary to scripture. It is merely a church tradition. Scripture clearly says that God controls us and our wills. Yes, we have a will but it is not "free". Below is what scripture says about our wills and who controls them:




John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby)

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. (Darby)

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.


Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.


Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?


I have discussed God's plan for the Salvation of mankind and our lack of "free will" many times in the past with many other people. Those who have believed that Christ is NOT the Savoiur of all men and that man is free to do and think as he pleases, simply have not believed the scriptures even when confronted with them. They have allowed church tradition to rule supreme over scripture - just as the Pharisees in Jesus' time allowed their traditions to rule over scripture. It is no different now. If you don't have a love for the truth and search for it as for hidden treasure, the Lord will not allow you to find it.




Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.



If the knowledge of God was laid out for the world to see as the mainstream church would have you believe, then why does scripture tell us to "search for it as for hidden treasures"??? God has hidden His truth and only reveals it to those HE chooses. We have no say in the matter. God rules supreme in all matter of this world (His world and His creation). The mainstream church raises man up to where man can overcome God's will. Man has no such power. Scripture says that God will save all men through His unfailing love but the mainstream church says that most men will reject His love and never come to Christ. I believe God and the scripture. In God's eyes, man is nothing. God will do all that He pleases to do.



Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Darby)



God is in complete control over His creation. Nothing happens without God causing it to happen. NO ONE can go against God's will and subvert it. God created Satan to be evil and to do all the evil he does. Satan was not a mistake nor are all the people who currently reject God. All people will be saved in accordance with God's plan and in His timing - not one second early and not one "born anew"second late. Where O' where is our faith to believe God and His Word? It is all but gone. No wonder Christ questioned whether or not He would find any faith on the earth when He returns.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

I have heard this "Universalism" before, you even believe in the end, that the Devil will be reconcilled.

Christ will judge EVERYONE in the end and every knee will bow but not every bowed knee will be saved. Those unsaved,will be judged at the Great White Throne after the one thousand year reign of Christ on earth, at which time I am sure Christ reminds them of their Apostasy, then it's off to eternal Hell!

For me and the rest of the true Christians, he will say: 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

Jesus said " Truly, truly , I say to you, unless one is born anew, he can not see the Kingdom of God. "Being "Born Again" with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our Spiritual birth, God calls us Holy and Righteous and that is now and our savaltion is now. You must be in the flesh to be "Born Again", once a person dies in the flesh and who is not saved, they also die spiritually, for there is no "born anew" from that point.

I would advice others to error on the safe side and seek God and his saving Grace now and not wait for some theory to inevitably save you in the end!

Originally Posted by Joe in Arkansas

But scripture clearly says that everyone in due time will accept the call of Jesus.

I would dearly love to see the scripture reference for that. Not everyone obeys God my friend.