Ed,
You think only lost people would think no matter how fleshly they are will NOT be raptured before the Tribulation? It would seem the opposite is true.

So isn't this counter to the gospel of Jesus, for Jesus holds believers accountable and He is sovereign, so you can't demand of him you will be raptured before the Tribulation no matter how carnal you choose to be?

There are various references to tribulation in the Bible, that the church will go through in the dispensation of grace, tribulations Israel will undergo, but we are only talking about the Tribulation of the last week of Daniel's seven here in which Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and Matt. 24.42 tell us to be received before the Tribulation to the throne (Rev. 7.) before the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation (ch.8ff), you would need to keep the word of His patience, be watchful and prayerful to be accounted worthy, which not all Christians do.

Let us preserve God's Word not according to the flesh.

Your motives Angela make no sense. You started this thread with nothing but questions, then you argue with the responses? This is illogical, or at least the motive is wrong. You joined the site and shot to this thread you started without even having the decency to at least introduce yourself in the new member forum.

The Rapture if for believers only. The unbelievers have had their chance just like the believers. So how on earth is this denying the grace of GOD? If a person is not a true repentant follower, they are not true Christians, therefore not part of the body of Christ (the Church).

Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven Matthew 7:21

Read this:

http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-pr...hlight=rapture
http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-pr...1-rapture.html
http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-pr...d-end-age.html

AngelaP: //You think only lost people would think no matter
how fleshly they are will NOT be raptured
before the Tribulation?

No, I think exactly the opposite:

only lost people would think no matter
how fleshly they are will [omit: NOT] be raptured
before the Tribulation?
Saved people, who have been saved by
Messiah Yeshua will know that they have to
obey the commandments of God and the commandments
of Yeshua, the Messiah, in honor and respect for
what Jesus has done for them.
God sent His only begotten Son: Jesus, to
be the Messiah, Christ, Chosen one, Lamb of God,
the Perfect Sacrifice -- just to bail us out of Hell.
I think it is more than that - He saved us to proclaim
the Gospel of Messiah.

AngelaP: // It would seem the opposite is true.//

Amen, Sister AngelaP -- you are so RIGHT ON!

AngelaP: // ... you can't demand of him you will be raptured
before the Tribulation no matter how carnal you choose to be.//

A formating note: people today show honor & respect
to the Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and
God the Holy Spirit; by using capital letters in the
pronouns which denote them. I've even seen some so
humble that they call themselves 'i' instead of 'I'.
So say: Jesus, He is Lord; ed he is fortunate if
he gets to make a door stop in the 3ed Heaven.

I make no such demand upon God, as you said:
I can't demand of Him. However, God is going to
rapture out a group of Christians (born-again, mostlly
Gentiles, elect saints of the Church Age) someday
so He can save a huge number of Jewish Israeli
elect saints of the. The Tribulation period is when
this will happen, Church Age Saints would just
be in the way

My question has turned into conviction because of your being unable to answer it, so that leaves one to be convinced in the condition for the first rapture.

I don't think those in the church are in the way in the Tribulation since many shall be martyred therein as a testimony (see the 5th seal and Rev. 20.4). Obviously God is allowing this martyrdom for a reason.The question is not if the saints will be raptured but when, since Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and Matt. 24.42 say only may you escape the hour of trial, these things that shall come upon the whole world, and accounted worthy if you keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful.

To deny this is certainly to not be ready and to pass through the Tribulation. But for those who are really deceived who can say they are even saved, because they will blame those at the first rapture and assume that if it was the Tribulation they would have been raptured. How can they even recognize the Tribulation if they deny it when it is happening?

Even though all believers follow Christ, not all Christians fulfill the condition set forth in these verses, many still have much to overcome, so to think otherwise is not know what it is grow in Christ, for you do not start out sinless, but have things to be delivered from by the power of the Holy Spirit through the cross, bearing your cross daily.

Originally Posted by AngelaP

My question has turned into conviction because of your being unable to answer it, so that leaves one to be convinced in the condition for the first rapture.

You must be full of joy and evil pride because the only conviction I got here was to ban you from this site. This is on behalf of everyone else when I say your ungodly and distasteful arrogant tone is not welcomed here. I have answered your question and gave you 3 links that had the answers to your childish tactics of asking questions, just to spit back at others.

Goodbye, good riddance to your nastiness. I am "convicted" that I made a delightful move banning you.

For everyone else, read the links I posted. They are really helpful.

I use the following definitions below:

pretrib -- a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church
post-trib -- post-tribulation ONLY rapture of the Chruch
OSAS -- once saved, always saved; aka: Salvation Security
non-OSAS -- once saved you might loose salvation,
--- or -- once saved you might revoke your salvation

I'm pretrib & OSAS.
I 'visit' a lot with post-trib folk who are non-OSAS.

It seems to me there are more pretrib/OSAS folks
OR post-trib/non-OSAS folks
then there are
pretrib/non-OSAS or post-trib/OSAS.

Maybe it is just me?

Umm...

I tried reading through this entire thread, but it seems that some people enjoy verbosity. Especially complicated theophilostic verbosity.

I know what Daniel, Matthew and Revelation says about the rapture, but unfortunately I also know that the messages in Revelation are extremely abstract, and can actually fit just about any triumph of good over corrupting evil.

And on top of that, it's written in the style of a 'letter of hope', and was written to the persecuted Christians of that era. Maybe the author (think it was John, not entirely sure of the name) just wanted to encourage and boost those Christians?

The Mark, for example, was a daily reality to them - the mark of the current Caesar was necessary for trade, and for acquiring the basic necessities of life. And I'm sure that there were prominent figures of Roman government that, at that time, could be related to the Beast, False Prophet, etc etc.

I mean, the compiling authorities almost dropped Revelation from the bible. So isn't it possible that we're putting way too much focus into it?

Do we have any evidence that the revelation time is now? And what evidence is there for the so-called 'rapture', where all believers (or whatever) disappear suddenly?

Or could it be that we're simply picking up a message meant for an earlier time, trying to make it fit into current history (which always repeats itself), and scaring ourselves silly?

~ Eleazar

Well i do not believe in the pre-trib rapture, bu i do not argue about it. i believe we will all be rapture at sometime. But i also believe we will go through some tribulation, that is just my two cents. it is all about who we say JESUS IS!!!
i always say keep your lamps full and be about the FATHER"S business at all times.

debbi

There will be a calling up (rapture) of the church (true believers).
Various opinions abound on when that will be, pertaining to the tribulation period.
It doesn't really matter to me... when, just that it is!

Though not all churchgoers or other styles of believers will be called.

Not all who cry Lord, Lord are true believers (born again in Christ).

IMHO :rose: