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  1. #1
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    Revived version of the rapture of the manchild

    Introduction

    This study is a Pre-great-trib rapture study, so it is pre-trib in a way, but
    not the way the Pre-trib rapture has been taught all this time.

    Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,
    even to the time of the end: (many shall run to and fro, and knowledge
    shall be increased).

    Revelation Chapter 12...


    The Woman and Manchild. Rapture and Exodus, of the children of Zion...
    The Woman and the Manchild of Revelation chapter 12...a Rapture, and a
    modern day Exodus?, the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...and the
    protection of the Woman in the wilderness (ie: modern day Exodus)...For the
    elects sake, God will shorten the days to send his angels to gather
    them...and lead the Woman into the wilderness. Why did Jesus say he would
    shorten the days? He said he would do it for the elects sake, Mark
    13:20...who are the elect? His people, both Gentile and Jew. What does he
    shorten the days for? Very likely for the gathering of his people, the
    elect. Not for his Second Coming... his Second Coming is to destroy the
    Antichrist and his Armys, Rev 19:19...if he didnt send his angels first, the
    Antichrist, or man of sin, would destroy the Jews...Hitler would'nt be able
    to hold a candle to this. Thats why we see the Woman, being protected from
    Satan, around the time of the Great tribulation, after she gave birth to the
    Manchild that Satan tried to destroy.



    (Nowhere in bible prophecy was Jesus Christ ever refered to as a manchild),
    i can't stress this enough... because most people use that interpretation. If
    Jesus is the manchild of Revelation chapter 12, then we have a simbolic woman giving birth to a literal man, and the woman is definitly not Mary the
    mother of Jesus, neither was Mary carried away to the wilderness for
    protection (Ie 3 1/2 years) from the wrath of Satan after giving birth to Christ, nor was Israel, the Jews. Jesus Christ also wasn't caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born... Rev 12:4,5 he was here on earth for at least 33 years. What these interpretations miss here, is that Jesus also promised the overcomeing saints, that they also will rule with a rod of iron, along side him...Rev 2:26,27. and John is writing here about future events, not past... all the prophecies of the birth of Christ are fulfilled.




    The Antichrist (WILL) rule for 3 1/2 years...God must protect the Jews or
    the Antichrist would kill every one of them, and they have not yet accepted
    Christ as their Messiah...but i believe they will, after God pleads with
    them in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:33-36. As soon as the woman gave birth to
    the Manchild, (The Church?) we see Satan going full force to try and destroy
    her...because the manchild was raptured (Caught up to God) sometime near the begining of the Great tribulation. Then we see Satan going after the left
    behind saints, who did'nt make themselfs ready to meet the bridegroom
    (May be wrong on this, as Jesus says the door was shut).



    As a result, i think they have to give their lives for their faith. Or they
    may also be part of the (falling away), as we see in Daniel... he says they
    fell that they would be tried and made white (Daniel 11:35)... Now, the 24 elders of this book is where it gets a little complicated, they
    seem to be raptured saints or part of the redeemed New Testament Church...but even some Pre-trib theologians are beginning to discredit that they are. Why? well we have a problem with the KJV, compared to all other newer versions i have of the bible...Lets have a look.


    KJV Version
    Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book,
    and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to
    God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    Rev 5:10 And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall
    reign on the earth.



    ASV Version
    Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book,
    and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto
    God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
    Rev 5:10 and madest THEM to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and THEY reign upon earth.


    BBE Version
    Rev 5:9 And their voices are sounding in a new song, saying, It is right
    for you to take the book and to make it open: for you were put to death and
    have made an offering to God of your blood for men of every tribe, and
    language, and people, and nation,
    Rev 5:10 And have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God, and THEY are ruling on the earth.



    CEV Version
    Rev 5:9 Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll
    and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you
    bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.
    Rev 5:10 You let THEM become kings and serve God as priests, and THEY will rule on earth."




    ISV Version
    Rev 5:8 When the lamb had taken the scroll, (the four living creatures and
    the twenty-four elders) bowed down in front of him.( Each held a harp) and a
    gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the saints.
    Rev 5:9 (They sang a new song): "You are worthy to take the scroll and open
    its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased
    people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
    Rev 5:10 You made THEM a kingdom and priests for our God, and THEY will
    reign on the earth."




    Also notice the last version i used above, you will see that the four beast
    are also singing this song, these four beast are mentioned in the old
    testament as being cherubims Eze 1:10 . So how could angelic beings sing the song of the redeemed, and claim they were redeemed from the earth? or be redeemed from every tribe, language, people, and nation, by the blood of
    Christ? and reign on the earth, as kings and priest? Jesus Christ did'nt
    shed his blood for angelic creatures. So this is basicly impossible...these
    four beast and the 24 elders, are singing a song (for the redeemed), not a
    song (of the redeemed). This is just common sense, when its read in its
    context.




    As we see only the KJV Version uses WE and US...Well i dont have all the
    versions, but the ones i do have don't make them out to be a redeemed
    Church. So there must have been a (mis-translation on these words)...also
    there is no proof anywhere that these 24 elders represent Raptured saints, i
    mean a redeemed N.T Church...So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the
    Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this
    interpretation. As we should know this won't work, because the Great
    multitude came out of the Great tribulation, (Jacobs trouble, and Daniel
    says this will be 3 1/2 years, of great tribulation...not seven).

    The Antichrist is probably only going to be revealed in the middle of his
    covenant with Israel...this is when he causes the abomination of desolation.
    Then begins the Great tribulation..(ie a time and times and the dividing of
    time...Daniel 7:25) you will also see that the Woman was protected from the
    face of the serpent (Satan) for a time, and times, and the dividing of time,
    Rev 12:14. The two witnesses of revelation have this time stamp as well,
    they will prophecy for one thousand two hundred sixty days. 42 months is
    also mentioned Rev 11:2 and Rev 13:5... which is equal two 3 1/2 years also.


    So, where did these 24 elders come from? since we see the four beast in
    the Old testament, but not the 24 elders. Well, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints, ... and likely prophets, Matthew 27:52, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration...These 24 elders could be Old Testament prophets or saints chosen by God to be elders in heaven after they were resurrected at the ressurection of Christ. 1 Corintians 15:23 says But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    As John did'nt say who they were, or where they came from,we have to leave them just as they are, and that is just that they are 24 elders in heaven. Or else we end up with some serious private interpretation on who they are. Why? because there are no prophecies about them, and all other newer versions of the bibles i list, don't make them out to be part of the Rapture, or the redeemed of the Church age.




    My Study so far... Keep in mind the shortening of the days, ...I may be
    incorrect on some of this, but who can say they have it all figured
    out?...also i think the Great Multitude that comes out of Great Tribulation,
    is this Manchild. Because this Manchild is going to become a Nation of
    people, who will be born in one day, or broth forth...


    Isaiah 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith
    the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

    You must read Isaiah Chapter 66...to understand the Manchild of Revelation
    Chapter 12. It is also a real good endtime prophecy, of God setting up his
    kingdom.



    The Manchild...the Children of Zion, (Jerusalem "ie Israel')


    A promise was also given to the saints, to rule with a rod of iron, along
    side Christ...below

    Rev 2:26 (And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him
    will I give power over the nations:)
    Rev 2:27 (And he shall rule them with a rod of iron); as the vessels of a
    potter shall they be broken to shivers: (even as I received of my Father).



    Bible theologians agree that the Woman of revelation Chapter 12 represents
    Israel, because of her crown of twelve stars. These stars could represent
    the 12 tribes, or the 12 apostles, but we must not forget that Jerusalem is
    in Israel, and is the city of God.


    Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with
    the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
    stars:
    Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to
    be delivered.


    Isa 26:17 (Like as a woman with child), that draweth near the time of her
    delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy
    sight, O LORD.


    Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and (see whether a man doth travail with child)?
    wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, (as a woman in
    travail), and all faces are turned into paleness?
    Jer 30:7 (Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even
    the (time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it).



    The Bible speaks about these birth pains over and over. Especially the old
    testament prophecies. And these birth pains are not just for the Jews, these
    birth pains will bring forth the Manchild, who will rule with a rod of iron.
    Don't forget that the above O.T prophecies are semi symbolic, so is the
    Woman of Revelation Chapter 12.



    Rev 12:5 (And she brought forth a Manchild), who was to rule all nations
    with a rod of iron: and her child was (caught up) unto God, and to his
    throne.



    (Raptured from the Great Tribulation )... This is not a Secret Rapture, its
    right here in black and white...the word Rapture means caught up or carried
    away...the woman was also carried away and lead to the wilderness... I think
    for years we have been looking for the Rapture, when Revelation Chapter 12
    has it right in front of our face, and we have ignored it...because people
    thought this Manchild was Jesus Christ. ( as i said... nowhere in bible
    prophecy is Jesus Christ ever refered to as a Manchild, and the saints will
    also rule with a rod of iron with him... Rev 2:26,27).


    You could argue that this is taking away the right of Christ to rule with a rod of iron...but thats not the case, this looks or seems like your degrading Christ, but thats not the case either, there is prophecy to back it up, Isaiah 66:7,8 and Revelation 2:26,27 plus many more on this Woman in travail.


    A nation will be born in one day, when the Woman has her children, (The
    Great Multitude?). Will God make a nation with only 144.000 firstfruit
    Jews?...I doubt it.


    Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your
    brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the
    LORD be glorified: but he shall (appear) to your joy, and they shall be
    ashamed.


    (Isa 66:6 ) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice
    of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

    Isa 66:7 (Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came,
    she was delivered of a (Manchild).

    Isa 66:8 (Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things)? Shall
    the (earth be made to bring forth) in one day? or (shall a nation be born at
    once?) for as soon as (Zion travailed), she brought forth (her children).

    Isa 66:9 ( Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth)? saith
    the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb)? saith thy God.

    Isa 66:8 (Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things) Shall
    the(earth be made to bring forth) in one day?...

    As we see, here is something taking place, that never took place before, the earth is bringing forth children (ie reserrection)...and a nation will be made with them.



    Rom 8:22 For we know that (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
    pain) together until now.

    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits
    of the Spirit, (even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
    adoption, to wit, (the redemption of our body).


    The Woman brought forth her children, A nation, Manchild...(Not Jesus).
    look at Isaiah (66.6) a voice from the Temple, that rendereth recompence to
    his enemies?... Its interesting that i was looking for passages with 666 in
    them, when i stumbled upon this.



    The Womans children (Manchild)... the Woman is Jerusalem (ie Israel), and
    part of Gods people. Jerusalem symbolicly...will bring forth her children in
    travail... are you a child of this nation, who will be born in one day? If
    you are a child of God, then i think you will be. "Isaiah Chapter 66 and
    Revelation Chapter 12"




    The falling away.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
    except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed),
    the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
    that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God),
    shewing himself that he is God.


    Above we see the words falling away...most Pre-Trib teachers say this
    falling away is the Rapture...this makes no sense at all. Lets see what
    Daniel says.


    Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
    purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is
    yet for a time appointed.


    So we see, Daniel plainly says some will fall, to try them, and to make them
    white. Daniel seen the falling away and so did Paul...the falling away is
    certainly not the rapture. But when you want a Rapture bad enough, you can
    make one...I can make a Rapture of the Church with the two witnesses if i
    try hard enough. But my study is not to try and make a rapture, my study is
    to try and find one...And the Manchild of Revelation Chapter 12, is
    definitly a Rapture...he was Caught up to God.



    Hereafter the Church?

    Some say that the apostle John, being in the spirit on the lords day is the
    rapture... because he was told to come up hither to right the things that
    must be hearafter..some have a saying, that the hearafter means hearafter
    the Church. John was caught up (in spirit, not body,) the saints will have a
    (bodily resurrection...so that don't fit). Plus John was caught up to heaven
    in spirit almost 2000 years ago... to say that this is the Rapture of the
    New Testament Church... is to say the Rapture took place at that time.
    Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and
    the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;
    which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which (must be
    hereafter). (ie take place in the future)
    Rev 4:2 And immediately (I was in the spirit): and, behold, a throne was
    set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    Hereafter in the above verses means the future... not hereafter the Church.
    After John delivered the seven letters to the seven churches, and the book
    of revelation, John was done his writeing. The Church carried on into the
    future, with the book of revelation as a guide to endtime events, and is
    still carrying on.

    More to come...

    God bless all
    Last edited by Fellowservant; 08-17-06 at 02:14 PM.
    In his service for his glory, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

  2. #2
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    Originally Posted by Fellowservant View Post
    Introduction

    This study is a Pre-great-trib rapture study, so it is pre-trib in a way, but
    not the way the Pre-trib rapture has been taught all this time.

    Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,
    even to the time of the end: (many shall run to and fro, and knowledge
    shall be increased).

    Revelation Chapter 12...


    The Woman and Manchild. Rapture and Exodus, of the children of Zion...
    The Woman and the Manchild of Revelation chapter 12...a Rapture, and a
    modern day Exodus?, the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...and the
    protection of the Woman in the wilderness (ie: modern day Exodus)...For the
    elects sake, God will shorten the days to send his angels to gather
    them...and lead the Woman into the wilderness. Why did Jesus say he would
    shorten the days? He said he would do it for the elects sake, Mark
    13:20...who are the elect? His people, both Gentile and Jew. What does he
    shorten the days for? Very likely for the gathering of his people, the
    elect. Not for his Second Coming... his Second Coming is to destroy the
    Antichrist and his Armys, Rev 19:19...if he didnt send his angels first, the
    Antichrist, or man of sin, would destroy the Jews...Hitler would'nt be able
    to hold a candle to this. Thats why we see the Woman, being protected from
    Satan, around the time of the Great tribulation, after she gave birth to the
    Manchild that Satan tried to destroy.



    (Nowhere in bible prophecy was Jesus Christ ever refered to as a manchild),
    i can't stress this enough... because most people use that interpretation. If
    Jesus is the manchild of Revelation chapter 12, then we have a simbolic woman giving birth to a literal man, and the woman is definitly not Mary the
    mother of Jesus, neither was Mary carried away to the wilderness for
    protection (Ie 3 1/2 years) from the wrath of Satan after giving birth to Christ, nor was Israel, the Jews. Jesus Christ also wasn't caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born... Rev 12:4,5 he was here on earth for at least 33 years. What these interpretations miss here, is that Jesus also promised the overcomeing saints, that they also will rule with a rod of iron, along side him...Rev 2:26,27. and John is writing here about future events, not past... all the prophecies of the birth of Christ are fulfilled.




    The Antichrist (WILL) rule for 3 1/2 years...God must protect the Jews or
    the Antichrist would kill every one of them, and they have not yet accepted
    Christ as their Messiah...but i believe they will, after God pleads with
    them in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:33-36. As soon as the woman gave birth to
    the Manchild, (The Church?) we see Satan going full force to try and destroy
    her...because the manchild was raptured (Caught up to God) sometime near the begining of the Great tribulation. Then we see Satan going after the left
    behind saints, who did'nt make themselfs ready to meet the bridegroom
    (May be wrong on this, as Jesus says the door was shut).



    As a result, i think they have to give their lives for their faith. Or they
    may also be part of the (falling away), as we see in Daniel... he says they
    fell that they would be tried and made white (Daniel 11:35)... Now, the 24 elders of this book is where it gets a little complicated, they
    seem to be raptured saints or part of the redeemed New Testament Church...but even some Pre-trib theologians are beginning to discredit that they are. Why? well we have a problem with the KJV, compared to all other newer versions i have of the bible...Lets have a look.


    KJV Version
    Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book,
    and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to
    God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    Rev 5:10 And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall
    reign on the earth.



    ASV Version
    Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book,
    and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto
    God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
    Rev 5:10 and madest THEM to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and THEY reign upon earth.


    BBE Version
    Rev 5:9 And their voices are sounding in a new song, saying, It is right
    for you to take the book and to make it open: for you were put to death and
    have made an offering to God of your blood for men of every tribe, and
    language, and people, and nation,
    Rev 5:10 And have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God, and THEY are ruling on the earth.



    CEV Version
    Rev 5:9 Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll
    and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you
    bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.
    Rev 5:10 You let THEM become kings and serve God as priests, and THEY will rule on earth."




    ISV Version
    Rev 5:8 When the lamb had taken the scroll, (the four living creatures and
    the twenty-four elders) bowed down in front of him.( Each held a harp) and a
    gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the saints.
    Rev 5:9 (They sang a new song): "You are worthy to take the scroll and open
    its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased
    people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
    Rev 5:10 You made THEM a kingdom and priests for our God, and THEY will
    reign on the earth."




    Also notice the last version i used above, you will see that the four beast
    are also singing this song, these four beast are mentioned in the old
    testament as being cherubims Eze 1:10 . So how could angelic beings sing the song of the redeemed, and claim they were redeemed from the earth? or be redeemed from every tribe, language, people, and nation, by the blood of
    Christ? and reign on the earth, as kings and priest? Jesus Christ did'nt
    shed his blood for angelic creatures. So this is basicly impossible...these
    four beast and the 24 elders, are singing a song (for the redeemed), not a
    song (of the redeemed). This is just common sense, when its read in its
    context.




    As we see only the KJV Version uses WE and US...Well i dont have all the
    versions, but the ones i do have don't make them out to be a redeemed
    Church. So there must have been a (mis-translation on these words)...also
    there is no proof anywhere that these 24 elders represent Raptured saints, i
    mean a redeemed N.T Church...So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the
    Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this
    interpretation. As we should know this won't work, because the Great
    multitude came out of the Great tribulation, (Jacobs trouble, and Daniel
    says this will be 3 1/2 years, of great tribulation...not seven).

    The Antichrist is probably only going to be revealed in the middle of his
    covenant with Israel...this is when he causes the abomination of desolation.
    Then begins the Great tribulation..(ie a time and times and the dividing of
    time...Daniel 7:25) you will also see that the Woman was protected from the
    face of the serpent (Satan) for a time, and times, and the dividing of time,
    Rev 12:14. The two witnesses of revelation have this time stamp as well,
    they will prophecy for one thousand two hundred sixty days. 42 months is
    also mentioned Rev 11:2 and Rev 13:5... which is equal two 3 1/2 years also.


    So, where did these 24 elders come from? since we see the four beast in
    the Old testament, but not the 24 elders. Well, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints, ... and likely prophets, Matthew 27:52, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration...These 24 elders could be Old Testament prophets or saints chosen by God to be elders in heaven after they were resurrected at the ressurection of Christ. 1 Corintians 15:23 says But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    As John did'nt say who they were, or where they came from,we have to leave them just as they are, and that is just that they are 24 elders in heaven. Or else we end up with some serious private interpretation on who they are. Why? because there are no prophecies about them, and all other newer versions of the bibles i list, don't make them out to be part of the Rapture, or the redeemed of the Church age.




    My Study so far... Keep in mind the shortening of the days, ...I may be
    incorrect on some of this, but who can say they have it all figured
    out?...also i think the Great Multitude that comes out of Great Tribulation,
    is this Manchild. Because this Manchild is going to become a Nation of
    people, who will be born in one day, or broth forth...


    Isaiah 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith
    the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

    You must read Isaiah Chapter 66...to understand the Manchild of Revelation
    Chapter 12. It is also a real good endtime prophecy, of God setting up his
    kingdom.



    The Manchild...the Children of Zion, (Jerusalem "ie Israel')


    A promise was also given to the saints, to rule with a rod of iron, along
    side Christ...below

    Rev 2:26 (And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him
    will I give power over the nations:)
    Rev 2:27 (And he shall rule them with a rod of iron); as the vessels of a
    potter shall they be broken to shivers: (even as I received of my Father).



    Bible theologians agree that the Woman of revelation Chapter 12 represents
    Israel, because of her crown of twelve stars. These stars could represent
    the 12 tribes, or the 12 apostles, but we must not forget that Jerusalem is
    in Israel, and is the city of God.


    Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with
    the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
    stars:
    Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to
    be delivered.


    Isa 26:17 (Like as a woman with child), that draweth near the time of her
    delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy
    sight, O LORD.


    Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and (see whether a man doth travail with child)?
    wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, (as a woman in
    travail), and all faces are turned into paleness?
    Jer 30:7 (Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even
    the (time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it).



    The Bible speaks about these birth pains over and over. Especially the old
    testament prophecies. And these birth pains are not just for the Jews, these
    birth pains will bring forth the Manchild, who will rule with a rod of iron.
    Don't forget that the above O.T prophecies are semi symbolic, so is the
    Woman of Revelation Chapter 12.



    Rev 12:5 (And she brought forth a Manchild), who was to rule all nations
    with a rod of iron: and her child was (caught up) unto God, and to his
    throne.



    (Raptured from the Great Tribulation )... This is not a Secret Rapture, its
    right here in black and white...the word Rapture means caught up or carried
    away...the woman was also carried away and lead to the wilderness... I think
    for years we have been looking for the Rapture, when Revelation Chapter 12
    has it right in front of our face, and we have ignored it...because people
    thought this Manchild was Jesus Christ. ( as i said... nowhere in bible
    prophecy is Jesus Christ ever refered to as a Manchild, and the saints will
    also rule with a rod of iron with him... Rev 2:26,27).


    You could argue that this is taking away the right of Christ to rule with a rod of iron...but thats not the case, this looks or seems like your degrading Christ, but thats not the case either, there is prophecy to back it up, Isaiah 66:7,8 and Revelation 2:26,27 plus many more on this Woman in travail.


    A nation will be born in one day, when the Woman has her children, (The
    Great Multitude?). Will God make a nation with only 144.000 firstfruit
    Jews?...I doubt it.


    Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your
    brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the
    LORD be glorified: but he shall (appear) to your joy, and they shall be
    ashamed.


    (Isa 66:6 ) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice
    of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

    Isa 66:7 (Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came,
    she was delivered of a (Manchild).

    Isa 66:8 (Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things)? Shall
    the (earth be made to bring forth) in one day? or (shall a nation be born at
    once?) for as soon as (Zion travailed), she brought forth (her children).

    Isa 66:9 ( Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth)? saith
    the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb)? saith thy God.

    Isa 66:8 (Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things) Shall
    the(earth be made to bring forth) in one day?...

    As we see, here is something taking place, that never took place before, the earth is bringing forth children (ie reserrection)...and a nation will be made with them.



    Rom 8:22 For we know that (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
    pain) together until now.

    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits
    of the Spirit, (even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
    adoption, to wit, (the redemption of our body).


    The Woman brought forth her children, A nation, Manchild...(Not Jesus).
    look at Isaiah (66.6) a voice from the Temple, that rendereth recompence to
    his enemies?... Its interesting that i was looking for passages with 666 in
    them, when i stumbled upon this.



    The Womans children (Manchild)... the Woman is Jerusalem (ie Israel), and
    part of Gods people. Jerusalem symbolicly...will bring forth her children in
    travail... are you a child of this nation, who will be born in one day? If
    you are a child of God, then i think you will be. "Isaiah Chapter 66 and
    Revelation Chapter 12"




    The falling away.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
    except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed),
    the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
    that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God),
    shewing himself that he is God.


    Above we see the words falling away...most Pre-Trib teachers say this
    falling away is the Rapture...this makes no sense at all. Lets see what
    Daniel says.


    Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
    purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is
    yet for a time appointed.


    So we see, Daniel plainly says some will fall, to try them, and to make them
    white. Daniel seen the falling away and so did Paul...the falling away is
    certainly not the rapture. But when you want a Rapture bad enough, you can
    make one...I can make a Rapture of the Church with the two witnesses if i
    try hard enough. But my study is not to try and make a rapture, my study is
    to try and find one...And the Manchild of Revelation Chapter 12, is
    definitly a Rapture...he was Caught up to God.



    Hereafter the Church?

    Some say that the apostle John, being in the spirit on the lords day is the
    rapture... because he was told to come up hither to right the things that
    must be hearafter..some have a saying, that the hearafter means hearafter
    the Church. John was caught up (in spirit, not body,) the saints will have a
    (bodily resurrection...so that don't fit). Plus John was caught up to heaven
    in spirit almost 2000 years ago... to say that this is the Rapture of the
    New Testament Church... is to say the Rapture took place at that time.
    Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and
    the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;
    which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which (must be
    hereafter). (ie take place in the future)
    Rev 4:2 And immediately (I was in the spirit): and, behold, a throne was
    set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    Hereafter in the above verses means the future... not hereafter the Church.
    After John delivered the seven letters to the seven churches, and the book
    of revelation, John was done his writeing. The Church carried on into the
    future, with the book of revelation as a guide to endtime events, and is
    still carrying on.

    More to come...

    God bless all
    REaders, this is mostly human reasoning with a little truth.
    The manchild of Rev. 12 IS Jesus.

    This short 5 verse story is only God showing John what the dragon DID (past tense) when Jesus was born, how the dragon tried to kill Him as a baby. It was a "history lesson" written as a parenthesis (out of sync with the chronology of the book.) This chapter, chapter 12, is God introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon will do during the second half of the week. If you count, you will find the dragon is mentioned I believe over 30 times in this chapter.


    John TELLS us this:

    Revelation 19:15
    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    (The saints will also rule with Him.)

    What "woman" gave birth to Jesus? Who else had the same symbols? OF course Israel - Jesus came from ISRAEL. Jesus told those living in Judea to flee when they see the abomination. Who for the most part lives in Judea today? Of course, the descendants of Jacob, Israelis. OF COURSE JESUS, the manchild, was "caught up to heaven." He "ascended" and disappeared in a cloud. Many SAW this event!

    I will agree, however, thinking that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture is TERRIBLE Bible exegesis. Even a 5th grader could tell us that was JOHN being caught up into heaven to be shown what was coming in the future.

    I agree too, "the falling away" is certainly not the rapture - it was a very poor job of translation. It is in error. Most of the first translations into English were better. They used "departing."

    How in the world could "falling away" keep with the THEME of the passage, the "gathering?" It does not. So this passage IS the departing or rapture of the church. At least one Greek scholar has said that apastasia could well mean a "spacial departure," that is, a group of people taken from a larger group and MOVED to another location. "Departing" is a good translation that FITS THE THEME of "THE Gathering." Did Paul mention a SIGNIFICANT falling away in his first letter? Certainly not! Did he mention a SIGNIFICANT "CATCHING AWAY? Certainly he did! And Paul CLEARLY tells us that before the man of sin can be revealed, the one restraining him MUST BE "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY." Will the rapture take something "out of the way?" Most certainly it will!

    As for the HUGE group, too large to number, who John was told came out of "great tribulation." Does this specifically say they came out of the SAME GT that Jesus spoke of that would be greater tribulation than any other time on earth, before or after? NO! Most certainly NOT. And in context, John COULD NOT have meant that GT that Jesus spoke of. The days of GT that Jesus spoke of, that will be greater than any other time on earth, will NOT BEGIN until Satan is cast down from heaven in Rev. 12. John saw this huge group - too large to number - in chapter 7, BEFORE THE 70th week even begins! So it certainly cannot be speaking of the same "great tribulation." So what is John's meaning? Don't forget, Jesus told one of the churches in Rev. 2:22 that He would cast those with the prostitute "into great tribulation!" These people lived almost 2000 years ago! Most certainly Jesus promise to them did not mean the days of GT He spoke of in Matt. 24! No, here in Rev. 2:22, He only meant, God can created days of GT anytime and anywhere! So what was John's meaning? Only this, by the time the rapture comes, it will "great tribulation" around the planet. NOT so bad as the days Jesus spoke of, because that time will not come until Satan is cast down, but it will be bad. People will be being put to death ONLY because they love Jesus, around the world! That is John's meaning. It is that way in half the world already.

    Daniel 11:35 is speaking of JEWS, NOT the Gentile church.

    I also agree, the 24 elders do NOT represent the rapture. In fact, if one really understands the vision of the throne room there, that was a vision of the PAST: John was looking BACK in time to a time where Jesus was STILL ON THE EARTH, before He rose from the dead. So how could those 24 elders in heaven, before Jesus even rose from the dead, represent a rapture? Impossible.

    Coop

  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by Fellowservant View Post
    Introduction

    This study is a Pre-great-trib rapture study, so it is pre-trib in a way, but
    not the way the Pre-trib rapture has been taught all this time

    So, where did these 24 elders come from? since we see the four beast in
    the Old testament, but not the 24 elders. Well, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints, ... and likely prophets, Matthew 27:52, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration...These 24 elders could be Old Testament prophets or saints chosen by God to be elders in heaven after they were resurrected at the ressurection of Christ. 1 Corintians 15:23 says But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    Dear Fellowservant, context of Revelation is New Testament. Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

    Thus the twenty-four elders and the four livings ones are of the Church. As you mentioned, Revelation 5:9 shows both the twenty-four elders and the four beasts singing a common song; And they sung a new song, saying, . . . . thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

    A most common problem presents itself with many here, because there are two groups of one united pre-trib rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: and 1 Thessalonians 4: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Who are the dead overcomers of this rapture to rise first? Revelation 2:10 . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Who are those alive and delivered alive to be delivered from the temptation to come upon all the world? Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 3:11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    Notice that these two churches of the seven churches are the only ones promised crowns and notice what is said of the twenty-four elders in Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne . . .

    I'll try to get back with you on the rapture of the man child and who they are. I will say the man child is definitely not Jesus. I may post a separate thread on the man child.

    My thoughts.

  4. #4
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    Hi FellowServant , long post there and i didnt read it fully yet when this caught my eye.


    Originally Posted by Fellowservant View Post
    (Nowhere in bible prophecy was Jesus Christ ever refered to as a manchild),
    i can't stress this enough... because most people use that interpretation. If
    Jesus is the manchild of Revelation chapter 12, then we have a simbolic woman giving birth to a literal man, and the woman is definitly not Mary the
    mother of Jesus, neither was Mary carried away to the wilderness for
    protection (Ie 3 1/2 years) from the wrath of Satan after giving birth to Christ, nor was Israel, the Jews. Jesus Christ also wasn't caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born...
    Mary was carried to wilderness if it symbolizes egypt.
    she went there after birth of Jesus.
    Matthew 2: 13
    the satan was trying to destroy the child when it was born. rev 12:4 " ..... and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."
    Rev didnt say the child was caught up immidiately. (Jesus was caught up after his resurrection.)

    5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne



    17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    seems to me its talking about Jesus , all the things match 100%

    btw ruling with rod of iron is prophecy given only of Jesus.

    God bless you....
    Last edited by jari; 02-18-12 at 09:44 PM.

  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by jari View Post

    Seems to me its talking about Jesus , all the things match 100%

    btw ruling with rod of iron is prophecy given only of Jesus.

    God bless you....
    Hi Jari.

    Revelation 2:26 And he (Overcomers from Thyatira that go into great tribulation) that overcometh, and keepeth my (Jesus') works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    Revelation 2:27 And he (The one that overcomes) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I (Jesus) received of my Father.

    The time frame of this must fit Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Am I missing something?

    Thanks.

  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by Romans 8.28 View Post
    Hi Jari.

    Revelation 2:26 And he (Overcomers from Thyatira that go into great tribulation) that overcometh, and keepeth my (Jesus') works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    Revelation 2:27 And he (The one that overcomes) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I (Jesus) received of my Father.

    The time frame of this must fit Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Am I missing something?

    Thanks.
    like you quoted:

    "even as I (Jesus) received of my Father."

    Jesus has the rod of iron too:

    Revelation 19:15
    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


    i think it symbolizes power .

    Originally Posted by Romans 8.28
    The time frame of this must fit Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Am I missing something?
    Revelations isnt solely about future prophecies. its also about letters to churches. that's why its possible it may repeat past events.
    Last edited by jari; 02-19-12 at 10:43 AM.

  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by Romans 8.28 View Post
    Hi Jari.

    Revelation 2:26 And he (Overcomers from Thyatira that go into great tribulation) that overcometh, and keepeth my (Jesus') works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    Revelation 2:27 And he (The one that overcomes) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I (Jesus) received of my Father.

    The time frame of this must fit Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Am I missing something?

    Thanks.
    I think you are reading into this verse something it does not really say.

    " to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;"

    verse Please note: if one whole chapter was a "history lesson" about the days of Moses, and all the rest of the book as is written, would this verse still be true? Would God have shown John "things" of the future?

    Of course it would! In fact, if God showed John TWO THINGS about the future, then spent the rest of the book showing John the recipe for manna, this statement would STILL be true.

    I know, I am being silly. But please note what John did NOT write:

    " to shew unto his servants ONLY things which must shortly come to pass;"

    John did not write that, neither did the Holy Spirit inspire John to write it. So God was free then, to show John HISTORY as well as FUTURE events. In truth, BOTH are found in the pages of this book.

    Next, "shortly" to God may not mean "shortly" to us. We may be thinking in seconds or maybe minutes. God may be thinking in eons, or ages.

    Indeed, even a fifth grader reading this, could tell us that many of the things in this book have never happened yet. MOST of the book is still future.

    Coop

  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by jari View Post
    like you quoted:

    "even as I (Jesus) received of my Father."

    Jesus has the rod of iron too:

    Revelation 19:15
    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    i think it symbolizes power .

    Revelations isnt solely about future prophecies. its also about letters to churches. that's why its possible it may repeat past events.
    With that in mind, I bring forth the scripture of Revelation 1:19. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. These were different viewpoints given from the Lord's day.

    What I want to make known here is that the man child of Revelation 12:5 fits the viewpoint of things hereafter in the revelation given to John when he is caught up into heaven. Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Yes, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron, and that will be with the word of God, but it is His followers He will use to exercise that rule. Notice one other thing concerning Revelation Chapter Twelve and its time frame. Revelation 12:6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. This three and one half years is during the tribulation.

    My thoughts.

  9. #9
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    Hi Romans, let me ask you something...

    Originally Posted by Romans 8.28 View Post
    This three and one half years is during the tribulation.
    where do you get this number?

    i find it bit odd that woman fleeing wilderness would represent tribulation. as the woman escape "it all" (persecuation, etc)


    God bless

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    Originally Posted by lecoop View Post
    I think you are reading into this verse something it does not really say.

    " to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;"

    verse Please note: if one whole chapter was a "history lesson" about the days of Moses, and all the rest of the book as is written, would this verse still be true? Would God have shown John "things" of the future?

    Of course it would! In fact, if God showed John TWO THINGS about the future, then spent the rest of the book showing John the recipe for manna, this statement would STILL be true.

    I know, I am being silly. But please note what John did NOT write:

    " to shew unto his servants ONLY things which must shortly come to pass;"

    John did not write that, neither did the Holy Spirit inspire John to write it. So God was free then, to show John HISTORY as well as FUTURE events. In truth, BOTH are found in the pages of this book.

    Next, "shortly" to God may not mean "shortly" to us. We may be thinking in seconds or maybe minutes. God may be thinking in eons, or ages.

    Indeed, even a fifth grader reading this, could tell us that many of the things in this book have never happened yet. MOST of the book is still future.

    Coop
    I agree with most of what you say, but in this instance Jesus is telling His angel; not the Holy Spirit to tell John of things to yet come during 1260 days of the tribulation, and that includes the man child being caught up to God's throne. Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

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