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  1. #1
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    buying and selling

    Hi ya'll. I spent a bit of time reading the "chip666" thread until it veered off onto something about the two witnesses.

    I felt a bit dissatisfied with the lack of attention people were giving to the phase "buy and sell" so I am starting this thread in the hopes that we can get into the nitty gritty of why buying and selling is connected to the Mark.

    My personal feeling is that a microchip implant is the most likely candidate for being the Mark of the Beast.

    I understand some people say that the Mark will not be a literal chip for buying and selling, because the ultimate point of the Mark is about worship.

    I agree with the worship part, but I see a very clear link between money and worship.

    Whatever medium we may be using (gold coins, paper money, cheques, smart cards, or microchip implants) the point of "buy and sell" is still the same; it represents the concept of money.

    What better way to control the world, than to tell people they can no longer buy food, clothing, or pay any of the numerous bills they have? We won't even be able to sell our services for paid employment anymore.

    It's obviously a very clever and effective strategy for turning people away from God. If they want all the luxuries, conveniences, and comforts that money can provide, all we need to do is accept the Beast and his system as our provider.

    That is where the worship part comes in. In the gospels Jesus gave some teachings about money which are much the same as the Mark of the Beast prophecy. He said that we cannot serve two masters without hating one or the other. He said one master is God and the other master is mammon (money and the things money can buy). Matthew 6:24

    The verses following go into great detail about how God does not want us to be like the pagans of the world running around thinking that they cannot live without working for money, and that we should seek God's kingdom first and then God, as our employer, will help us to get the things he knows we need.

    The two teachings are extremely similar, but the Mark represents a final showdown. As it is now, Jesus told us to stop working for the purpose of making money, and to start working for his kingdom of Love, but all kinds of convenient doctrines have slipped into the church to explain why Jesus didn't really mean what he said; why it's all just a big misunderstanding.

    But when the Mark comes, it will be like a kind of liberation for people who are really serious about promoting the kingdom of Heaven. No more games or masks. If our faith is in God, we will reject the Mark and start working for the Kingdom.

    If our faith is in money then we will reject the Kingdom and trust the beast to provide for us.

    So, what do you all think?
    Last edited by my_little_pony; 11-07-11 at 07:27 AM. Reason: forgot bible qute

  2. #2
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    The merchant system does not need us to take a mark.The future merchants will use biometrics,facial and voice recognition and in the not to distant future machines will simply sniff your DNA for identification.
    We will all be marked by the world system with or without our consent.

    My big issue with this line of though is that the scriptures would not have any significance to all those who read the scriptures for 2000 years.
    I would have to believe that all "end time" scripture had no meaning for anyone until the last generation.

    If our faith is in money then we will reject the Kingdom and trust the beast to provide for us.
    I agree,that is a kingdom principle and not based "end time "speculation.
    I know a man who lost a 125,000 a year job because he refused to find an important client a hooker.As far as I'm concerned he refused to take their mark and was punished.
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    All this speculation about what the mark is is an exercise in futility until such time as you establish the identity of the beast.
    The OP is quite correct, that the issue is about worship. But worship of money is hardly the offence which brings down the most fearful wrath of God in the history of mankind. Man have been worshiping money since it was first created....nothing new there....why would it attract so much attention form heaven now?
    The money or buying and selling issue is merely the incentive (for some) or disincentive (for others) to accept the mark. The mark itself is a sign, seal, or stamp of authority. To accept it you are surrendering yourself to the authority of he who claims it as theirs.
    And because the mark is a form of worship, then you are surrendering yourself to the beasts form of worship, which it establishes in the earth in opposition to the true worship of God.
    Satan however is at the back of all this remember. So do not expect a clear cut choice between an obvious error and the truth. This final days worship is a form of deception.....it is a counterfeit form of worship of a counterfeit God. But to be effective, for the plan to succeed, for this counterfeit to attract even the elect,it must be as close as possible to the real thing, therefore must be a quasi Christian form of worship. Thus the beast himself, the Antichrist, is professedly Christian. And that my friends fits nicely with the baseline meaning of the word 'antichrist'....in place of...in the room of....or in Latin, vicarius filii dei.
    V=5......F=0........D=500
    I=1 ......I=1.........E=0
    C=100...L=50.......I=1
    A=0......I=1
    R=0.......I=1
    I=1
    U=5
    S=0

    112 + 53 + 501 = 666

    So who in the religious world goes by the official title vicarius filii dei...vicar of the Son of God? Answer that and you are on your way to identifying the beast. The simple task then is to discover what his mark is.

  4. #4
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    Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts View Post
    The merchant system does not need us to take a mark.The future merchants will use biometrics,facial and voice recognition and in the not to distant future machines will simply sniff your DNA for identification.
    We will all be marked by the world system with or without our consent.

    My big issue with this line of though is that the scriptures would not have any significance to all those who read the scriptures for 2000 years.
    I would have to believe that all "end time" scripture had no meaning for anyone until the last generation.

    I agree,that is a kingdom principle and not based "end time "speculation.
    I know a man who lost a 125,000 a year job because he refused to find an important client a hooker.As far as I'm concerned he refused to take their mark and was punished.
    Not all of scripture applies to everyone at all times. The old testament is still scripture, but we are no longer under the law of the OT, we are under grace now. Obviously Christ had not been crucified yet in the time of Abraham, and Isaac, yet they believed that God was going to provide a way of salavtion for them, and their faith in something that didn't happens until hundreds of years after their death was counted to them as righteousness. (Heb 11:1-10)

    The people of the old testament believed a Messiah was coming, but he came thousands of years later for some of them. The orthodox Jews are still waiting for their messiah.

    The end times and the beast may not apply to us "today" or even in our generation, it may happen in the future.

    Rev 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
    Rev 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
    Rev 13:17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
    Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

    But it will happen at some point. If the Bible says the sign is in your forehead or right hand, then thats where it will be. It will be something that is a conscious choice, a conscious decision, it won't be something that can happen without you knowing it, or something that can be accidentally duplicated. You can't control how your face looks or how your voice sounds, but you can control what kind of mark or chip or tatoo goes on your forehead or right hand.

    The second coming/rapture may not occur in my life time, but it will happen, even if I'm not on the Earth when it happens.
    Last edited by B-A-C; 11-08-11 at 02:45 AM.
    *- BAC -*

  5. #5
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    My big issue with this line of though is that the scriptures would not have any significance to all those who read the scriptures for 2000 years.
    I would have to believe that all "end time" scripture had no meaning for anyone until the last generation.
    I think the mistake you are making is trying to separate the "end time" from the testimony of Jesus.

    The opening line of the Revelation says that it is a revelation OF Jesus, and later, in Revelation 19:10 an angel says that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus.

    In other words, Jesus confirms prophecy and prophecy confirms Jesus. There is no need to make them two separate issues.

    For example, in my OP I made a very clear connection between the LESSONS both Jesus and the Revelation were making about man's loyalty to money Vs their loyalty to God.

    Even now, when the Mark is not officially in operation, the lesson of choosing God over money is still a valid lesson.

    The merchant system does not need us to take a mark.The future merchants will use biometrics,facial and voice recognition and in the not to distant future machines will simply sniff your DNA for identification.
    We will all be marked by the world system with or without our consent.
    But biometrics and DNA sniffing is not necessary for buying and selling. Granted, microchip implants are also not necessary for buying and selling, BUT along with the words of the prophecy and the spiritual lesson, it is also helpful to look at actual world events as well.

    From gold coins, to coins of lesser value, to paper money, to cheques, to credit cards, to debit cards, to smart cards, the general concept of money has gone through a lot of evolution. Each step along the way has made it easier to handle money, easier to accumulate more money, and easier to spend more money.

    Based on what is actually happening in literal world banking around us, microchip implants is fast becoming the most likely next step for the evolution of money.

    We could debate what "mark" actually means as it could have a lot of different meanings, and that's why I feel the main identifier should be what the Bible actually says will be the purpose of this Mark; buying and selling.

    We can eliminate almost all the other theories out there which do not conform with what is happening in world banking these days. Micorchip banking is the most likely candidate, based on what is happening the the world around us, and what the prophecy says about it.

    The OP is quite correct, that the issue is about worship. But worship of money is hardly the offence which brings down the most fearful wrath of God in the history of mankind.
    Well, I dunno if it's really a contest about which worship, other than himself, makes him most angry. Like, if we worship a spouse or child will that worship make God any more or less angry than if we worship a computer or pet?

    However, I gave some fairly strong evidence in my OP that God really DOES have something against our dependency on money. Could you respond to those points I made?

    The money or buying and selling issue is merely the incentive (for some) or disincentive (for others) to accept the mark.
    Yeah, this is basically what I am saying, except that I am taking it a step further and saying that the MEANS of buying and selling IS the Mark.

    Satan however is at the back of all this remember. So do not expect a clear cut choice between an obvious error and the truth.
    Good point and one which I feel actually supports my claim that the Mark will be a microchip implant.

    There is nothing overtly religious about microchip implants, and yet, a microchip implant is able to fulfill all the requirements mentioned in scripture about the Mark.

    It's just another way to buy and sell; what's so wrong with that? The majority of people will be looking for some kind of religious or "satanic" Mark, probably because they never took the warning about "buy and sell" seriously.

    The simple task then is to discover what his mark is.
    Yeah, I've heard the thing about the Pope being the Beast. I tend to lean more in favor of him being the false prophet. The Pope has an awful lot of credibility to lend as well as fitting the description of the beast with horns of a lamb (perhaps pretending to speak on behalf of Christ) but who has a dragon's mouth (while actually uplifting the Beast).

    The thing about "discovering" the Popes Mark, according to what you've mentioned here, is relating it back to the issue of buying and selling.

    I think the usual thing that comes up, when discussing the possibility of the Pope being the Beast, is that his Mark will be Sunday worship. Is that what you are getting at?

    Anyway, my point is, how does it relate back to buying and selling?

    But it will happen at some point. If the Bible says the sign is in your forehead or right hand, then thats where it will be. It will be something that is a conscious choice, a conscious decision, it won't be something that can happen without you knowing it, or something that can be accidentally duplicated. You can't control how your face looks or how your voice sounds, but you can control what kind of mark or chip or tatoo goes on your forehead or right hand.
    Thank you BAC; excellent point. Whatever form the Mark may eventually take, the entire context of the lesson suggests a choice between God and the Beast.

  6. #6
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    It will be something that is a conscious choice, a conscious decision, it won't be something that can happen without you knowing it, or something that can be accidentally duplicated. You can't control how your face looks or how your voice sounds, but you can control what kind of mark or chip or tatoo goes on your forehead or right hand.
    Thats my point,the merchant doesn't need us to make that decision any more.They won't need a bar code or chip anymore.It must be something that we have control of.Maybe they could offer a discount to those with a chip but I don't see the advantage to the merchant.

    Not all of scripture applies to everyone at all times.
    I respectfully disagree,scripture comes from out of time and tells us of patterns and cycles that will eventually manifest in linear time.
    Old testament saints were counted righteous for having faith that God would provide a Savior.
    John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and
    is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    There is so much more to all of this than just an end time event.
    The name Cain translates to metalsmith or merchant.
    Man without the spirit of God is a beast.

    Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

    The forehead speaks of the mind and it's focus(apple of the eye).
    The hand speaks of our dealing with society,the right hand being authority or works and the left hand being mercy.
    I think the mistake you are making is trying to separate the "end time" from the testimony of Jesus.
    Actually I believe Jesus is the end of time.The day of the Lord. The last day.The day,the way,the light,the truth and in him there is no day/night cycles.

    For example, in my OP I made a very clear connection between the LESSONS both Jesus and the Revelation were making about man's loyalty to money Vs their loyalty to God.
    That is what I was saying.It's been an issue since the Garden and applies to each believer(micro) and the world eventually(macro).
    Last edited by Thiscrosshurts; 11-08-11 at 11:55 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Actually I believe Jesus is the end of time.The day of the Lord. The last day.The day,the way,the light,the truth and in him there is no day/night cycles.
    Hi THC, I think you are still missing something. Martha said much the same thing to Jesus when he asked her if she believed that Lazarus would rise again from the Dead. Martha said she knew he would rise again at the last day.

    But Jesus corrected her technicality. He said "*I* am the resurrection". In other words there is no rule we can nail God down on and Jesus' influence is not limited to a single event, or day, or prophecy etc.

    It's the same with lessons from prophecy. You started out by saying:

    My big issue with this line of though is that the scriptures would not have any significance to all those who read the scriptures for 2000 years.
    I would have to believe that all "end time" scripture had no meaning for anyone until the last generation.

    The LESSONS are significant, because all those lessons reflect the teachings of Jesus from the Gospels. The lessons from prophecy CONFIRM what Jesus came to teach us, even if those prophecy are not literally fulfilled in our life time.

    Otherwise, what is the point of any prophecy?

    So, even thought the Mark of the Beast was not fulfilled in the life time of many, many Christians, the lesson of choosing between God and mammon is still there.

    Jesus teachings from matthew 6:24 and the Mark prpophecy about buying and selling are two teachings which confirm one another, but since Jesus is the ultimate subject of the Revelation it is HIS teachings from the gospels that get the preeminence while the Revelation is there as a witness to his teachings.

    Know what I mean?

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    Know what I mean?
    Since you basically explained what I said I would have to say yes.
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  9. #9
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    V=5......F=0........D=500
    I=1 ......I=1.........E=0
    C=100...L=50.......I=1
    A=0......I=1
    R=0.......I=1
    I=1
    U=5
    S=0

    112 + 53 + 501 = 666

    So who in the religious world goes by the official title vicarius filii dei...vicar of the Son of God? Answer that and you are on your way to identifying the beast. The simple task then is to discover what his mark is.


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    No one knows what the mark is and will be like, this is one of the things the bible doesn't explain in great detail.

    The 666chip is something that won't happen for a VERY long time. Yes we may have the technology now, but not the time, money, and power to control 6 billion people with it.

    It's safe to assume that it will be something of strict biblical status. Something really big and by a higher power. Something man cannot put out on its own.

    No one knows.

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