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  1. #81
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    Originally Posted by Joe in Arkansas View Post
    Dear RJ,
    I'm sorry I mistakenly called you Larry in my last post to you.

    Since you are not going to post any further, I will not expect you to answer my questions below but merely think about them.

    You have not responded to most of my questions or verses that I posted. Is your lack of response to those questions and verses do to your lack of scriptural support to give me a sensible answer?

    Are you believing that God tortures His children (forever as you believe) in fire for no reason at all but to hurt them like no one has ever hurt them before? Can there be any other reason? Do you have any other reason? Is mankind better parents than God??? At least mankind's good parents punish their own children to correct their behavior but your doctrine of hell says God will punish most of His children just to do severe harm to them; that He has no redeeming or corrective purpose in mind for doing this punishment. The doctrine of hell that you support makes God out to be the worst monster of all time. Being forever tortured in hell for the sole purpose of doing unimaginable harm to an individual is what Satan might do to someone if he had the power to do it. The God of scripture would NEVER do such a thing. Where is the love in burning someone in fire for the sole purpose of making them suffer forever, on and on, never ending? Can you love a God who would do this to one of your children (assuming you are a father)? Remember, this torture of your child never ends. I could never love a god like this!! How can you bear to even think about what God is doing to your child in that fire? And the mainstream churches call this justice??? These people who you say go to hell may have lived a reasonably good life by human standards, never harming anyone or living like a criminal but still they just never felt that they could love a God like the churches proclaim. So their punishment for this is to be eternally tortured in fire!!?? Why do you want to follow a God like that? When I read the scriptures, I read of a God of love and mercy; a God that loves His enemies and does good to them; a God that forgives even when we are yet sinners. That God would find a way for His love to save all men and that is the God proclaimed by the scriptures.

    You said,
    The Bible is distinct about about the "Dead in Christ" being raised in the future; I will leave that up to God how he determines what ancients, before Christ, are raised up. The Bible says nothing about the " Dead not in Christ" being raised up because it won't happen.

    Even you (as a lot of believers like you do) have to come up with an extra-biblical way to make it a little more fairer for people that lived and died (your ancients) prior to Christ. What about the people who lived after Christ but just never heard of Him? What about children who died young? Do you have a way for it to be fair for them too? When you can understand and accept the truth of scripture, the way for all of us is clear as I have laid out. And that way goes through Jesus Christ who will in no wise cast us out, to be testified to in "due time".

    1Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

    And these scriptures:

    John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    These two scriptures make it impossible for God to fail for even one person. If He does, these scriptures are lies. The Father has given all things to Christ and these same all things will come to Christ and He will no cast them away. Who can that leave out??? If you won't believe just the two simple scriptures, you would not believe the dozens more that I could present to you.

    The doctrine of hell is the most hideous thing the mind of man has ever invented. Can you possibly think of anything worse that could ever be done to a person? I can't. Even the serial killers that torture their victims can only do so for a short time (until they die). But the doctrine of hell says God will torture them forever because He won't allow them to die. How sick is that?

    I hope you reconsider your position and start looking for the God of love and mercy that the scriptures proclaim.

    I wish you the peace that the love of God gives,

    Joe in Arkansas
    Joe, I will respond this one last time out of respect and the fear that you possibly may not be saved, in light of the fact that there is one basic difference between you and I. You don't live by faith!


    1. You have not responded to most of my questions or verses that I posted.
    I have not responded because you use of such verse to prop up you own ego of knowing God better than anyone I have ever or hope to meet again.

    2. Are you believing that God tortures His children (forever as you believe) in fire for no reason at all but to hurt them like no one has ever hurt them before?

    From the time of Adam, God has given choice. If they do not accept God's grace by faith in this life, I have no control over what happens to them in the next, except through faith to accept what the Bible tells most of us.

    3. but your doctrine of hell says God will punish most of His children just to do severe harm to them; Again, I say, don't you put words in my mouth, it is not my doctrine...it wasn't before me and it won't be well after I am gone.

    4. The God of scripture would NEVER do such a thing. Where is the love in burning someone in fire for the sole purpose of making them suffer forever, on and on, never ending? This reasoning is. in my opinion, your greatest error and possible down fall. My God of scripture caused a horrible death to Man, Woman and child in the great flood. He also, by his orders had his ancient Israllite army wipe out complete nations of people; not one animal, man woman or child lived, killed by club, fire, sword and no telling what other horrible means....You worship a different God than I do. And hear is your error, God is capable of anything in accordance to his will and who are you to put him in a box and label him as you will.....what ego and arrogance!!! One has to read the Bible and pay heed to what it says, and the things you can not understand, your are to go by faith in God as the supreme creator and trust his will, not yours.

    God says: Blessed is the one who does not see yet believes!

    5. Can you love a God who would do this to one of your children (assuming you are a father)? Remember, this torture of your child never ends. I could never love a god like this!! Yes I am a Father of two beautiful sons and two more beautiful grandsons!! And, my answer is yes I can and do Love God, no matter what happens.

    Even in this life, if they where to be horribly tortured, raped, mutilated and then killed, I would still love God.......could You?!!!

    The key to my understanding of God is my unending faith and love for him first above all others. You should consider to do the same, and I pray that God releases you from the bondage that you are currently under....the bondage of your lack of faith.


    " I'll see you here or I will see you up there or I will see you in the air"!.....Beam me up , Lord!

  2. #82
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    Originally Posted by Joe in Arkansas View Post
    Dear RJ,
    I'm sorry I mistakenly called you Larry in my last post to you.

    Since you are not going to post any further, I will not expect you to answer my questions below but merely think about them.

    You have not responded to most of my questions or verses that I posted. Is your lack of response to those questions and verses do to your lack of scriptural support to give me a sensible answer?

    Are you believing that God tortures His children (forever as you believe) in fire for no reason at all but to hurt them like no one has ever hurt them before? Can there be any other reason? Do you have any other reason? Is mankind better parents than God??? At least mankind's good parents punish their own children to correct their behavior but your doctrine of hell says God will punish most of His children just to do severe harm to them; that He has no redeeming or corrective purpose in mind for doing this punishment. The doctrine of hell that you support makes God out to be the worst monster of all time. Being forever tortured in hell for the sole purpose of doing unimaginable harm to an individual is what Satan might do to someone if he had the power to do it. The God of scripture would NEVER do such a thing. Where is the love in burning someone in fire for the sole purpose of making them suffer forever, on and on, never ending? Can you love a God who would do this to one of your children (assuming you are a father)? Remember, this torture of your child never ends. I could never love a god like this!! How can you bear to even think about what God is doing to your child in that fire? And the mainstream churches call this justice??? These people who you say go to hell may have lived a reasonably good life by human standards, never harming anyone or living like a criminal but still they just never felt that they could love a God like the churches proclaim. So their punishment for this is to be eternally tortured in fire!!?? Why do you want to follow a God like that? When I read the scriptures, I read of a God of love and mercy; a God that loves His enemies and does good to them; a God that forgives even when we are yet sinners. That God would find a way for His love to save all men and that is the God proclaimed by the scriptures.

    You said,
    The Bible is distinct about about the "Dead in Christ" being raised in the future; I will leave that up to God how he determines what ancients, before Christ, are raised up. The Bible says nothing about the " Dead not in Christ" being raised up because it won't happen.

    Even you (as a lot of believers like you do) have to come up with an extra-biblical way to make it a little more fairer for people that lived and died (your ancients) prior to Christ. What about the people who lived after Christ but just never heard of Him? What about children who died young? Do you have a way for it to be fair for them too? When you can understand and accept the truth of scripture, the way for all of us is clear as I have laid out. And that way goes through Jesus Christ who will in no wise cast us out, to be testified to in "due time".

    1Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

    And these scriptures:

    John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    These two scriptures make it impossible for God to fail for even one person. If He does, these scriptures are lies. The Father has given all things to Christ and these same all things will come to Christ and He will no cast them away. Who can that leave out??? If you won't believe just the two simple scriptures, you would not believe the dozens more that I could present to you.

    The doctrine of hell is the most hideous thing the mind of man has ever invented. Can you possibly think of anything worse that could ever be done to a person? I can't. Even the serial killers that torture their victims can only do so for a short time (until they die). But the doctrine of hell says God will torture them forever because He won't allow them to die. How sick is that?

    I hope you reconsider your position and start looking for the God of love and mercy that the scriptures proclaim.

    I wish you the peace that the love of God gives,

    Joe in Arkansas
    ================================================== ================================================== ====


    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


    Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.



    Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


    do you believe the serpent said :" Ye shall not surely die " if so can you tell me how and why?just becase god is love and mercy ? or you believe in the serpent?!

    John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    all things,I can post a list about all things:and you quote "people are gods!

    firstborn
    only begotten Son of God
    :only love was created by god


    Rom 8:14 For as many that are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father as bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God...
    (and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life) the only begotten Son of God.


    Ye are gods
    Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most high.
    John 10:34 Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said "ye are gods"?

    Gen 6:4 那时候有伟人在地上,后来 神的儿子们和人的女子们交合生子,那就是上古英武有名的人。
    [kjv]There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.





    " you fools!
    and these so called gods created hate..............kill........fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness.....war.........ETC.........did you never read OT history story? that's how the story goes...............that's why the story ends at Rev
    Revelation(Rev)[66]



    Genesis (Gen) 1
    Exodus (Exo) 2
    Leviticus (Lev) 3
    Numbers (Num) 4
    Deuteronomy (Deu) 5
    Joshua (Jos) 6
    Judges (Jdg) 7
    Ruth (Rut) 8
    1Samuel (1Sa) 9
    2Samuel (2Sa) 10
    1Kings (1Ki) 11
    2Kings (2Ki) 12
    1Chronicles (1Ch) 13
    2Chronicles (2Ch) 14
    Ezra (Ezr) 15
    Nehemiah (Neh) 16
    Esther (Est) 17
    Job (Job) 18
    Psalm (Psa) 19
    Proverbs (Pro) 20
    Ecclesiastes (Ecc) 21
    SongofSongs (Son) 22
    Isaiah (Isa) 23
    Jeremiah (Jer) 24
    Lamentations (Lam) 25
    Ezekiel (Eze) 26
    Daniel (Dan) 27
    Hosea (Hos) 28
    Joel (Joe) 29
    Amos (Amo) 30
    Obadiah (Oba) 31
    Jonah (Jon) 32
    Micah (Mic) 33
    Nahum (Nah) 34
    Habakkuk (Hab) 35
    Zephaniah (Zep) 36
    Haggai (Hag) 37
    Zechariah (Zec) 38
    Malachi (Mal) 39
    Matthew(Mat)40
    Mark(Mar)41
    Luke(Luk)42
    John(Joh)43
    Acts(Act)44
    Romans(Rom)45
    1Corinthians(1Co)46
    2Corinthians(2Co)47
    Galatians(Gal)48
    Ephesians(Eph)49
    Philippians(Php)50
    Colossians(Col)51
    1Thessalonians(1Th)52
    2Thessalonians(2Th)53
    1Timothy(1Ti)54
    2Timothy(2Ti)55
    Titus(Tit)56
    Philemon(Phm)57
    Hebrews(Heb)58
    James(Jam)59
    1Peter(1Pe)60
    2Peter(2Pe)61
    1John(1Jo)62
    2John(2Jo)63
    3John(3Jo)64
    Jude(Jud)65
    Revelation(Rev)66


    Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

    Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Job 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jesus who is the image of god.

    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of every creature: LOVE

    Last edited by soberxp; 10-27-10 at 02:29 PM.

  3. #83
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    Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Joe, I will respond this one last time out of respect and the fear that you possibly may not be saved, in light of the fact that there is one basic difference between you and I. You don't live by faith!


    1. You have not responded to most of my questions or verses that I posted.
    I have not responded because you use of such verse to prop up you own ego of knowing God better than anyone I have ever or hope to meet again.

    2. Are you believing that God tortures His children (forever as you believe) in fire for no reason at all but to hurt them like no one has ever hurt them before?

    From the time of Adam, God has given choice. If they do not accept God's grace by faith in this life, I have no control over what happens to them in the next, except through faith to accept what the Bible tells most of us.

    3. but your doctrine of hell says God will punish most of His children just to do severe harm to them; Again, I say, don't you put words in my mouth, it is not my doctrine...it wasn't before me and it won't be well after I am gone.

    4. The God of scripture would NEVER do such a thing. Where is the love in burning someone in fire for the sole purpose of making them suffer forever, on and on, never ending? This reasoning is. in my opinion, your greatest error and possible down fall. My God of scripture caused a horrible death to Man, Woman and child in the great flood. He also, by his orders had his ancient Israllite army wipe out complete nations of people; not one animal, man woman or child lived, killed by club, fire, sword and no telling what other horrible means....You worship a different God than I do. And hear is your error, God is capable of anything in accordance to his will and who are you to put him in a box and label him as you will.....what ego and arrogance!!! One has to read the Bible and pay heed to what it says, and the things you can not understand, your are to go by faith in God as the supreme creator and trust his will, not yours.

    God says: Blessed is the one who does not see yet believes!

    5. Can you love a God who would do this to one of your children (assuming you are a father)? Remember, this torture of your child never ends. I could never love a god like this!! Yes I am a Father of two beautiful sons and two more beautiful grandsons!! And, my answer is yes I can and do Love God, no matter what happens.

    Even in this life, if they where to be horribly tortured, raped, mutilated and then killed, I would still love God.......could You?!!!

    The key to my understanding of God is my unending faith and love for him first above all others. You should consider to do the same, and I pray that God releases you from the bondage that you are currently under....the bondage of your lack of faith.


    Dear RJ,
    I am amazed that you can love someone that will torture your child in hell for all eternity, with no hope of them ever having their suffering ended. This is a complete contradiction to Christ telling us to love our enemies and to do good to them. When does Christ change? Why is it okay for Him to hate and torture His enemies at some later point in time but it is not okay for us to do it? Would this not be hypocritical of Him? Can't you see that this doctrine that you embrace (yes, it is your doctrine, you have taken ownership of it even though you didn't create it) is in direct conflict with loving your enemies?

    Back in church history, they used to burn heretics at the stake. They justified it by saying that they are not doing anything that God won't be doing to them after they are dead! Do you want to burn to death heretics and those who reject Christ? Would it be okay with you to do it after they have died? You say it is okay for Christ to do it, however I assume you would be horrified to even think about harming someone. Why is it okay for Christ to do it then? What if Christ (after you are in heaven) gives you the job of keeping the fires going in hell. Would you love doing His work of keeping their suffering going? How long do you think you could do it before you go completely insane from hearing their screams?

    Also, scripture says not to judge others but you have judged me. You said that I use scripture to "prop up my own ego". You said that my understanding of scripture puts God in a box and then you say "what ego and arrogance!!!". I for one do not put God in a box. As I have said, all things are possible with God, even fulfilling His Word to save the world. He will do all that He has said He will do. I am not offended by your accusations of me and I have already forgiven you. I have heard worse before by others who have no scriptural response to my statements or questions. I am secure in my faith that Christ has given me. I love the Lord because He loves us and will continue to love us all. You are right when you said "You worship a different God than I do." The God you serve is a living nightmare for 99% of mankind. It is no wonder they won't fall down and worship him.

    Since this discussion is no longer on a polite and productive level, I will no longer post to you unless you stop your personal attacks on me.

    Joe in Arkansas

  4. #84
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    I'll leave you the Joe in Arkansas of gods (IMO:[URL="http://dj.iciba.com/He%20is%20a%20high%20binder./"] ), you said you save all men .

    honest I can't do that even say that,cuz I'm watchman in the scripture,my work is warning people which is "Jew"(.......don't wonder that......I know that people don't mix the OT with NT..............
    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    ).
    so I'm not one of any god,cuz I'm watchman in the scripture.
    if all men have been saved as what you have said:"I shouldn't do the warning work which I received from my god as what you have said all men have been saved . "

    and my god didn't tell me that all men would got save in the future.but a lot of worry that I felt from our free mother and our Lord Jesus and our god,especially my god.

    NOW because of you ,so I am thinking about you were thinking about my god was some kind of talk nonsense,and you were holding the following verse.

    Joh 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
    Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
    Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
    Joh 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
    Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
    Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
    Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
    Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
    Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
    Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
    Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
    Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    ================================================== ==

    1Ki 3:5 In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee.
    1Ki 3:6 And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day.
    1Ki 3:7 And now, O LORD my God, thou hast made thy servant king instead of David my father: and I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in.
    1Ki 3:8 And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.
    1Ki 3:9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?
    1Ki 3:10 And the speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing.
    1Ki 3:11 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;
    1Ki 3:12 Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.
    1Ki 3:13 And I have also given thee that which thou hast not asked, both riches, and honour: so that there shall not be any among the kings like unto thee all thy days.
    1Ki 3:14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.
    1Ki 3:15 And Solomon awoke; and, behold, it was a dream. And he came to Jerusalem, and stood before the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and offered up burnt offerings, and offered peace offerings, and made a feast to all his servants.
    1Ki 3:16 Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him.
    1Ki 3:17 And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house.
    1Ki 3:18 And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house.
    1Ki 3:19 And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it.
    1Ki 3:20 And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.
    1Ki 3:21 And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear.
    1Ki 3:22 And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king.
    1Ki 3:23 Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living.
    1Ki 3:24 And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king.
    1Ki 3:25 And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other.
    1Ki 3:26 Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it.
    1Ki 3:27 Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof.
    1Ki 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment

    ================================================== ==
    you the Joe in Arkansas of gods (IMO: ) But the other(Samaria is Aholah) said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it.
    ===========================================
    Eze 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

    Eze 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

    Eze 16:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

    Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live. (Prophecies Fulfilled Today )

    Eze 16:7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. (Prophecies Fulfilled Today )

    Eze 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
    Eze 23:4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
    Eze 23:34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. (Prophecies Fulfilled Today )

    Eze 25:4 Behold, therefore I will deliver thee to the men of the east for a possession, and they shall set their palaces in thee, and make their dwellings in thee: they shall eat thy fruit, and they shall drink thy milk. (Prophecies Fulfilled Today )
    Last edited by jiggyfly; 10-27-10 at 05:32 PM. Reason: posting links without permission

  5. #85
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    Originally Posted by Joe in Arkansas View Post
    Dear RJ,
    I am amazed that you can love someone that will torture your child in hell for all eternity, with no hope of them ever having their suffering ended. This is a complete contradiction to Christ telling us to love our enemies and to do good to them. When does Christ change? Why is it okay for Him to hate and torture His enemies at some later point in time but it is not okay for us to do it? Would this not be hypocritical of Him? Can't you see that this doctrine that you embrace (yes, it is your doctrine, you have taken ownership of it even though you didn't create it) is in direct conflict with loving your enemies?

    Back in church history, they used to burn heretics at the stake. They justified it by saying that they are not doing anything that God won't be doing to them after they are dead! Do you want to burn to death heretics and those who reject Christ? Would it be okay with you to do it after they have died? You say it is okay for Christ to do it, however I assume you would be horrified to even think about harming someone. Why is it okay for Christ to do it then? What if Christ (after you are in heaven) gives you the job of keeping the fires going in hell. Would you love doing His work of keeping their suffering going? How long do you think you could do it before you go completely insane from hearing their screams?

    Also, scripture says not to judge others but you have judged me. You said that I use scripture to "prop up my own ego". You said that my understanding of scripture puts God in a box and then you say "what ego and arrogance!!!". I for one do not put God in a box. As I have said, all things are possible with God, even fulfilling His Word to save the world. He will do all that He has said He will do. I am not offended by your accusations of me and I have already forgiven you. I have heard worse before by others who have no scriptural response to my statements or questions. I am secure in my faith that Christ has given me. I love the Lord because He loves us and will continue to love us all. You are right when you said "You worship a different God than I do." The God you serve is a living nightmare for 99% of mankind. It is no wonder they won't fall down and worship him.

    Since this discussion is no longer on a polite and productive level, I will no longer post to you unless you stop your personal attacks on me.

    Joe in Arkansas
    Your vast knowledge of the Bible is only exceeded by your distortion of it!
    I apologize if you were offended, I do not judge you; that is solely left up to Jesus Christ. I merely make an observation, that anyone, including me, would judge God by their on human and worldly views, is the highest form of pride and, therefore, human arrogance.

    While we are on the subject, I would suggest you study in more depth, what the Great White Throne of Judgement is and what is it's main purpose, less you distort that too!

    Call this arrogant, if you will but God knows my heart and I pray fo you and your false doctrine.
    " I'll see you here or I will see you up there or I will see you in the air"!.....Beam me up , Lord!

  6. #86
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    Dear RJ,
    I was not offended by your comments but they were judgmental - you judged me of being arrogant and having a conceited ego. You have mistaken my confidence in Christ for negative traits. As I said, I forgave you before you apologized but I do appreciate your apology and gladly accept it.

    I have studied the Great White Throne and God's judgment extensively. I am sure your understanding of it would conflict with mine. My understanding of God's judgment comes from scriptures like these:

    Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

    The Lord's judgment and righteousness go hand in hand.

    Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

    Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

    The Lord loves His judgment and considers His judgment suited to be in the company of His other character traits like lovingkindness and righteousness and He delights in all three. Why would this be so? Because His judgment is righteous and brings about righteousness in those He judges:

    Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

    The Lord's judgment "redeems".

    Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

    The Lord's judgment washes away filth.

    Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

    The nations are blessed by the Lord's judgment.

    Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

    People learn righteousness from His judgments.

    Matt 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    What is the outcome of the Lord's judgment on Sodom & Gomorrha?

    Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

    They are restored. And what about Israel?

    Matt 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    Israel's judgment will be more severe that that of Sodom and Gomorrha but they to will be restored:

    Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

    As I have said in my posts, when the Lord judges someone, He produces righteousness in them. His judgments really are righteous and true unlike the judgment that embodies the doctrine of hell.

    Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

    Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    When the Lord's judgment are "made manifest", the outcome produces righteousness and people shall willingly come and worship before Him. Since the Lord has swore to judged all men, all men will be made righteous and will willingly come and worship before Him to the glory of the Father:

    Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Surely you can see that the Lord's judgment is righteous and true and is full of love unlike the preverted judgment that the doctrine of hell professes.

    Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

    The Lord's judgment produces righteous people. If the Lord was judging the world at this time, the the world would be learning righteousness. But He is not judging the world now and the evil in the world is waxing worse and worse because of it. The Lord IS judging those who will be in His church at this time so as to make them righteous. That is why judgment starts with the church:

    1Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    The church is made righteous through judgment first. That is why the church is called first fruits of the harvest of mankind. And that is just another reason why I believe these scriptures to be true:

    1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    I will end with this verse:

    Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

    The Lord really is good to all and that is why He must judge all men. It would be unloving to leave even one person in an evil and unrighteous state. Judgment is necessary (and can be very unpleasant to say the least) but is a loving act by a loving God.



    May the Lord bless you,
    Joe in Arkansas



  7. #87
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    Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    the nations “But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” (Matthew 6:33)

    "Today I am giving you the choice between a blessing and a curse! You will be blessed if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today. You will receive a curse if you reject the commands of the LORD your God and turn from his way by worshiping foreign gods. Deut. 11:26-28

    Romans - 9:31 kjv:But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

    Rom 9:30-33 What shall we say then? (understanding what was just said in the previous verses, we reach the conclusion) That the Gentiles, which did not follow after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.

    Wherefore? (why not?) Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


    Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
    Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
    Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
    Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
    Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
    Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
    Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    ================================================== =
    Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
    Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Job 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jesus who is the image of god.the law is one word love.

    salvation fulfilled in love.
    law is fulfilled in love.
    but Jesus just is salvation? no,Jesus is love.

    Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    Pro 23:23 buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

    sold under sin,buy the truth,and sell it not.this is just so call salvation and the law is spiritual(the holy spirit)
    ===========================================
    Eph 2:8-9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Not of works:this is meaning the works which before you creating yourself in christ by Faith.

    lest any man should boast:Look,the sinner in christ, before the sinner is no more good works than mine.

    Eph 2:8-9:this is not telling us,we don't need good work in Christ.

    do u understand my bro?

    you don't know the real god of Jacob I'm sure.... the real god of Jacob is NOT ONLY love and mercy

    Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (the yoke of bondage)

    rev 13:17
    And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    出 20:5 不可跪拜那些像,也不可事奉它,因为我耶和华你的 神是忌邪的 神。恨我的,我必追讨他的罪,自父及子,直到三四代;
    [kjv]Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;



    出 34:14 不可敬拜别神,因为耶和华是忌邪的 神,名为忌邪者。
    [kjv]For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:



    民 25:11 “祭司亚伦的孙子、以利亚撒的儿子非尼哈,使我向以色列人所发的怒消了;因他在他们中间,以我的忌邪为心,使我不在忌邪中把他们除灭。
    [kjv]Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.



    民 25:13 这约要给他和他的后裔,作为永远当祭司职任的约,因他为 神有忌邪的心,为以色列人赎罪。”
    [kjv]And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.



    申 4:24 因为耶和华你的 神乃是烈火,是忌邪的 神。
    [kjv]For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.





    EVEN IF JESUS ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SIN ! THE REAL GOD OF Jacob NEVER CHANGE!

    Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: (HOW ABOUT THE MORDEN CHURCH! THEY ARE WAITING PEOPLE GO TO CHURCH.have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment(I have no words), mercy(salvation), and faith(the whole bible 66 books)
    Last edited by soberxp; 10-28-10 at 04:15 PM.

  8. #88
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    Hello Soberxp.

    I read your posts, you seem to be on the right track.

    Very well done, good quotes.

    I wish I could speak and understand Chinese
    as well as you write English.

    Stay with Jesus my friend.
    Deal with it.

  9. #89
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    You cannot reverence God to the degree that you no longer reverence His Word as truth. If Hell is merely temporal, let me take my licks and hopefully learn my lesson. If hell does not exist or is an idle threat to manipulate me into obedience than God would have lied. God would not have had to come nor die for me if such was the case. You asked if our earthly parents were better than our Heavenly Father; well said, who can love better than Love Himself ("If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?")? But even a parent cannot force their children to obey; in the end the choice belongs to each one of us. Nor can God who gave freewill by His own judgment force His way upon us. Thus "the gifts and callings of God are without repentance;" for if God should reverse His decision where is the foresight, and perfect judgment of God? Sin is the attempt to disprove the Word of God, using the abundant graces bestowed unto us as weapons to condemn God as a liar (whereas He is committed unto death that we might be justified and saved). There is nothing received in judgment that is not due; for "as you have judged so shall you be judged!" The very question of religion and righteousness posed before you in this life is the result of a prior judgment from the fall before us, and our acceptance or rejection of this gospel of Christ shall determine the judgment due by God in the end ("Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."). Predestination is the inevitable result from a God who is Alpha and Omega, "declaring the end from the beginning!" Not one precept of His Word shall fail: not from our Bible or His book of Life ("Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.")!

    You seem to be arguing that ultimate reconciliation (the kingdom restored proving the righteousness of God's judgments from beginning to end) as the evidence that disproves Hell (and thus an aspect of the Word of God). I fully believe in ultimate reconciliation but the manner of fellowship you have with God is entirely based upon your own jugment, freewill, and faith ("Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.").
    Last edited by caprice09; 06-09-12 at 02:40 PM.

  10. #90
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    The sin we think to see in God is in fact our own. We think the judgment of hell is so atrocious as if God had done something wrong, when God could not be just unless this judgment was sentenced in righteousness against the wickedness of our sin.

    "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations." Meaning the sacrifice of sin was so unbearable and intolerable because the sin in our lives, equally as disgusting before the eyes of a holy God, was not seen as something in need of such drastic measures to be justified.

    "Do unto him as he thought to have done unto his brother;" the wicked are overthrown because they sought to overthrow God and His Word (Proven true in how they honored one another, made in the likeness and image of God. For "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."). And before you get cute and say that God did not honor the wicked as Himself; yes indeed He did! For if the wicked can remain unrepentant for their hand in the crucifixion of sin (for sin made necessary the death of Christ) then they according to His likeness can be offered as a sacrifice (without blemish, for they too are covered in the blood as much as God's mercy covers all) unto God without His regard. If this seems cruel of God, perhaps we should look again at the sin which He judged in righteousness. For God indeed seeks that all should be saved, and will justify through whatever means the law allows.

    We cannot believe we are saved by the righteous sacrifice of God, and simultaneously dispute the integrity of His Word! Either He is righteous and we sanctified in His truth/Word, or any aspect of His Word is a lie and our sacrifice of sin is found to be with blemish.
    Last edited by caprice09; 06-11-12 at 03:48 PM.

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