Originally Posted by HumbledByGrace

I don't view what we are doing as support for Israel. We are giving them welfare, that makes them dependent on us. Foreign welfare is no different than domestic welfare. I wouldn't wish welfare on my worst enemy let alone my best friend... We shouldn't be forcing them to look out for us... How would we feel if the Chinese, who have loaned us trillions of dollars, started forcing us to look out for their interests holding the debt above our head and showing that they have enough leverage to make our lives a lot harder if we don't start doing what is best for them.

Israel is not just one voice by the way... There are multiple political opinions and Israel is very devided on the Issues. The US is propping up the Likud Party which claims to support the free market, but really doesn't. I would Consider them to be partially socialist, because of their support for multiple big government programs. As far as attacked Iran, the former head of Mossad (Kinda like the CIA) said that attacked Iran at this point would be the dumbest thing Israel could do right now.

Our support for Individual groups in foreign nations is horrible. Arming the Syrian Rebels and the Libyan Rebels (many of which were Al Qaeda) would be like the Chinese giving money and weapons to Occupy Wallstreet... Obviously Occupy Wallstreet does not represent the majority of Americans.
(I HOPE NOT)

I view America much like Rome... We are dictating what Israel does to protect our interests. George W Bush was trying to divide up Israel.. Obama is doing the same... We need to let them do what is best for their own country. If you as an idividual want to volunteer or donate money to Israel, Go for it! The Israeli Defence Force will gladly allow anybody who supports the Israelis to join and fight in the Israeli Military. But the government should not be borrowing money from China and giving it to Israel, or the countries surrounding it... or anywhere for that matter.

When Israel Bombed the Nuclear Reactor in Iraq, guess who was the only person who didn't vote to Condemn Israel in Congress? Ron Paul..

Israel is a sovereign nation, but God has raised the USA up to keep her. Her annihilation was sure until we stepped in. Interestingly enough then President Richard Nixon and his Secretary of State Henry Kissinger were strongly anti-Israel. With Arab forces closing in and Golda Mier so sure of their destruction she was preparing her own suicide, God woke Nixon up with a dream. He reminded him of his Christian mother telling him that one day he would be in a position to help Israel and that it would be God who placed him there for just that reason/. That night military aid went in and the rest is history.
As far as Israel, they are approximately 1/3000n of the worlds population and completely surrounded by people who want nothing less than to see them dead- but then God had other plans.
So your extreme view of keeping the Jewish state from annihilation welfare does not seem to jive with God's plan.

Originally Posted by HumbledByGrace

We obviously don't agree on who the founders of this nation are... I believe the founders were around during the late 1700s not the 1940s. .

Apologies, things written in haste tend to have mistakes, I was wrong about the War Powers Act. It was obviously the product of rushing as I was running out the door but - oops.

Anyway, I believe that God has raised up the USA specifically to support Israel.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


These two wings of a great Eagle (USA) were plucked of the Lion (Great Briton Dan 7:4) to save the woman (the Jews) from satan as she gave birth to Israel.

The support of Israel is one of the main reasons The United States has enjoyed so much blessing in the past:

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So from a biblical standpoint, it is wisdom to support Israel any way the USA can.


As far as our early government they seemed to feel war was sometimes needed as we were involved in more than a few-

From the About American History Web site:

1775-1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain
1798-1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France
1801-1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli
1812-1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain
1813-1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Indians

It took only 16 years for the USA to find itself at war again (after the Revolutionary War).
One year after that we find ourselves at war with four other nations.

As far as war -
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Here is one example of God deliberately sending war as judgement :
Oba 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.


I am not a warmonger, but I do realize it's biblical and political validity.
Other than that, I am just barely smart enough to know a few things:

1. We will not know complete peace from war (except the false peace of the anti-christ) until Jesus returns.

2. You and I are never going to agree on this.

3. Wars are not going away in spite of both our desire for that to happen.

So, signing off of this thread, wishing you well,
much love in Christ,

your brother Larry.

Originally Posted by Boanerges

Apologies, things written in haste tend to have mistakes, I was wrong about the War Powers Act. It was obviously the product of rushing as I was running out the door but - oops.

Anyway, I believe that God has raised up the USA specifically to support Israel.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


These two wings of a great Eagle (USA) were plucked of the Lion (Great Briton Dan 7:4) to save the woman (the Jews) from satan as she gave birth to Israel.

The support of Israel is one of the main reasons The United States has enjoyed so much blessing in the past:

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So from a biblical standpoint, it is wisdom to support Israel any way the USA can.


As far as our early government they seemed to feel war was sometimes needed as we were involved in more than a few-

From the About American History Web site:

1775-1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain
1798-1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France
1801-1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli
1812-1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain
1813-1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Indians

It took only 16 years for the USA to find itself at war again (after the Revolutionary War).
One year after that we find ourselves at war with four other nations.

As far as war -
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Here is one example of God deliberately sending war as judgement :
Oba 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.


I am not a warmonger, but I do realize it's biblical and political validity.
Other than that, I am just barely smart enough to know a few things:

1. We will not know complete peace from war (except the false peace of the anti-christ) until Jesus returns.

2. You and I are never going to agree on this.

3. Wars are not going away in spite of both our desire for that to happen.

So, signing off of this thread, wishing you well,
much love in Christ,

your brother Larry.

The funny thing is, if we didn't have an Unconstitutional central bank, we wouldn't have the foreign policy that we do today. Imagine if the government actually had to raise your taxes to fund these wars and all the welfare... There would be a Revolution. No. Instead we have a bunch of money changers that print money to pay for the wars. The printing of money causes the value of the dollar to decline, which raises prices for everything. Since 1913 98% of the dollar's value has been victim to theft. Do you remember when you could purchase a hamburger for a nickel?.. If anything the cost of a hamburger should have gone down since everything has become more effecient... No. Now a Hamburger, of the same quality, costs 3 dollars.. That is theft.

"As far as our early government they seemed to feel war was sometimes needed as we were involved in more than a few-

From the About American History Web site:

1775-1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain
1798-1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France
1801-1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli
1812-1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain
1813-1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Indians"

Did we start any of those wars? All of those wars were in defence because we were attacked, blockaded, raided or our merchant ships were being destroyed... I have no problems with defensive wars. We are no longer fighting wars in defense, these are all offensive occupations. We probably are not even aware of what the CIA is doing in nations like Syria... Do you know that in the Libyan Conflict we aided Al Qeada? I have no doubt we are heavily engaged in acts of subversion right now to look out for our government's "interests".

We are not supporting Israel. They have lost their sovereignty and are in bondage to us, much like we will be in bondage to the people that loaned us money. They can't do anything without a nod from US politicians. They can't negociate for themselves, they can't make military decesions for themselves They are our slaves. We need to let them make their own decesions and they need to be accountable for them. Israel is full of adults, they are not a bunch of babies.

Our government is drugging Israel as a whole. The money that we give them makes them not work as hard. Look at what domestic welfare and foodstamp programs have done to people... It creates a dependency on the government. This is modern day slavery and the people who are living off the dole don't even realize it.It leaches productivity that would have occured under a free market. Why work when I can get the money from other people?

Imagine if, instead of paying 40% of your income to the State and Federal Government, which in turn blows it all on welfare and other worthless government projects, that you kept your hard earned money and could tithe even more. Imagine how much more wealth could be had if you invested those extra talents instead of burying them.

The Federal Government spends 6.5 trillion each year... 1.4 trillion of which it doesn't even have. Imagine if the government spent money on things that are only Constitutional. It would probably only need to spend 400 billion each year. What could taxpayers do with the extra 4.7 trillion dollars that the government didn't blow? 4,700 billion. I'm sure that there would be more than a few people who would be willing to help Israel with some of that Extra money.

But unfortunantley it seems most people would rather the government be charitable for the people. Honestly our politicians couldn't care less about Israel. They just want to have power over it and they want to make money from the defense contractors.


This nation was supposed to cherish Liberty. You have the Liberty to make the right choice or the liberty to make the wrong choice. We have a free will, and God rewards those who choose the path that they know is correct... His path. He will reward those that choose, for themselves, to put forth some of their own money to charities in Israel instead of having the government steal it from others and then claim to be "blessing Israel", while the Israelis chase our money on a string... China's money that is.


I'll tell you what; you keep advocating for defense spending, and I will continue advocating for the welfare state. We'll watch the country go broke together. It'll be fun. Then we can really see some bible prophecy when the Russians and Chinese become the power players. Actually we probably won't see it because we won't survive the collapse of America. Maybe in heaven though.

Instead of looking at foreign policy as the whole world, just look at it like your neighborhood. Each household is a nation.

If somebody breaks into your house and tries to steal from you, is it fair to shoot them? Yes... What if you knew your neighbors husband was a wife beater (Saddam), but you also knew that he beat up the neighbors that you didn't like (Iran)... so you gave him money, weapons and told him the best time to break into your other neighbors house, knowing that he would also use the money to beat up his family. If your neighbor's husband is a known wife beater, would it be okay for you to break into their house and kill her husband (Saddam)? No. Would it be okay for you to break into their house, kill their husband and then occupy their home for 9 years, make their rules, set up checkpoints. Would it be alright to give your neighbors family a list of Husbands that you support and had them choose one from that list and then called that a free election... No.

Of course if you stayed at home and didn't get involved everybody labels you an isolationist...

What if there was a Muslim family across the street that didn't like you going into their house uninvited, and didn't like the fact that you beat up some Muslim people in another family. What if their kids got so angry that they went to your house and beat your kids up. Does that justify going to every Muslim family's home in your neighborhood and beating all of them up and destroying a lot of their property? No! Because you started it by messing around in their business. Of course we all know that from the begining the Muslim families on the block have always been eager to break into our home... They are always fighting each other, they were bound to fight us, so they had it coming eventually huh... Is that the way to look at it? Yeah, our home would be safer if we actually made sure that it's windows were locked and nobody could break in, but we are too busy trying to make everybody in the neighborhood hate us, so we don't have enough time to make sure our own house is in order.

Unfortunantley for our home, we are way under on our mortgage, we lost our jobs because we are always home beating people up or out buying gifts for our children... The Chinese neighbors across the street have decided they don't want to loan us anymore money. We are running out of credit cards to shift the bills and nobody will let us open a new one, our interest rates are about to go through the roof and we are going to be forclosed on in 3 weeks if we don't make a payment... So let's keep buying the kids more toys and beating up our neighbors! That's what America has turned into.

What we should have done, was abide by the rules that we set up when we started the household. We should have worked hard, made sure our home was secure and we should have been friends with every neighbor. Not just the ones who we agreed with. We shouldn't have given our adult children a free ride. We should have cut the dole and forced them to work for what they wanted. Maybe then our neighbors would look up to us again like they used to, as the kind loving family who was friends with everybody and didn't gossip or fight. The family who didn't vote away their rights to the homeowners associations...(like the UN and NATO) Haha.

From everything that's been said this have being the defining moment.

Instead of looking at foreign policy as the whole world, just look at it like your neighborhood. Each household is a nation.......HumbledByGrace.

Even for Christians that's easier said than done.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;
Gen 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
Gen 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

Israel is God's chosen people. His Word and his promise come from Israel.
Jesus himself was a Jew.

Does the U.S. support Israel? Not nearly as much as we used to. In fact Obama has cut some of the strings just in the last year or two. The U.S. and Israel were once close allies. Lately the U.S. has been leaning toward the Palestinians.

The U.S. has made many changes in the last generation.
Homosexuality is legal and promoted.
Abortion is legal.
Prayer has been removed from our schools.
The 1o commandments has been removed from our court-rooms.

25 years ago, the U.S. had the strongest miltary, technology and economy.
We were one of the most respected nations and God blessed us.

Now, it seems our economy, military and technology are falling apart.
Education is failing, much of our technology is out sourced to other nations.
Our economy is in trouble, and our military is having problems as well.

Coincedence? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Originally Posted by B-A-C

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;
Gen 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
Gen 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

Israel is God's chosen people. His Word and his promise come from Israel.
Jesus himself was a Jew.

Does the U.S. support Israel? Not nearly as much as we used to. In fact Obama has cut some of the strings just in the last year or two. The U.S. and Israel were once close allies. Lately the U.S. has been leaning toward the Palestinians.

The U.S. has made many changes in the last generation.
Homosexuality is legal and promoted.
Abortion is legal.
Prayer has been removed from our schools.
The 1o commandments has been removed from our court-rooms.

25 years ago, the U.S. had the strongest miltary, technology and economy.
We were one of the most respected nations and God blessed us.

Now, it seems our economy, military and technology are falling apart.
Education is failing, much of our technology is out sourced to other nations.
Our economy is in trouble, and our military is having problems as well.

Coincedence? Maybe, but I don't think so.

America is not, and has not been blessing Israel.. Ever. At least that is what my Jewish friends from Israel have said. They view that the US is just using Israel to fullfill it's interests and tossing it out whenever Israel does something that we don't approve of. And that is really true. We are hedging our bets on Israel by giving 15 billion to the nations around Israel. We are just trying to force people to look after our interests.

That is why we shouldn't allow the government to play God with our tax dollars. We as individual Christians should work to bless Israel, we shouldn't lobby the government to do it, because the Government is certainly not doing it out of love for Israel.

"I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the general government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit. A prevalent tendency to disregard the limited mission of this power and duty should, I think, be steadfastly resisted, to the end that the lesson should be constantly enforced that, though the people support the government, the government should not support the people.
The friendliness and charity of our countrymen can always be relied upon to relieve their fellow citizens in misfortune. This has been repeatedly and quite lately demonstrated. Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of paternal care on the part of the government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character, while it prevents the indulgence among our people of that kindly sentiment and conduct which strengthens the bonds of a common brotherhood." - Grover Cleveland, A president who actually cared about the Jewish people.. Somebody that donated his own money to charities rather than calling on the Federal Government to donate other people's money for him..

You quoted,

These two wings of a great Eagle (USA) were plucked of the Lion (Great Briton Dan 7:4)
to save the woman (the Jews) from satan as she gave birth to Israel.

Interesting interpretation of two of the beasts, Boanerges.

Some merit in your argument methinks.

I'm sure a lot of you still cling to the notion that International Socialism (Foreign Aid) benefits Israel somehow.

I have a question. Just which constitutional provision allows the Congress or Executive Office of the United States to send money to foreign nations? Even if foreign aid was beneficial, as frequently advertised by Interventionists, Congress IS NOWHERE AUTHORIZED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION TO SEND U.S. TAXPAYER MONEY TO FOREIGN NATIONS. Does the Constitution not hold any value to anybody? Over 200 years ago, God Performed a Miracle by allowing 13 colonies to form an Independent Liberty Oriented Nation. Thousands of patriots shed Their Blood for this nation and we are just going to throw it all away under the guise of helping Israel? Why is it off limits for Christians to stop supporting the bondage of Isarel? Is it ethical to support self bondage? This money that we are illegally sending to Israel and hundreds of other nations comes from somehwere... We are stealing from our future children. That is theft, and actually breaks a 10 commandmant. Any Conservative who is worth their salt should understand that Socialism does not benefit anybody but the elites!



By the way I hope you guys understand that the money we are giving to Israel has multiple strings attached..

1: It is loan money. It isn't the same free money we give to the nations surrounding Israel. We are telling the Israelis that they have to pay us back.

2: With the loans we have veto power over everything they do. They are no longer a sovereign nation, the Jewish people are all subjects to our Federal Government.

Proverbs 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

Israel is our Federal Government's servant and we are China's servant.

I think that some not only misunderstand the American Constitution and the role we should have in the world, they also misunderstand Zionism. Part of the original idea of Zionism, as I understand it, was that there should be Jewish independence and Jewish self-reliance. Today, America doesn’t want anyone to be self-reliant. We want to rule the world and be the saviors of the world and we are going broke in the process.

Saying that America is blessing Israel because we loan them money is like saying that the Chinese are Blessing America by loaning us money... No. The Chinese loans have enabled our government to spend more and grow deeper in debt.

There really is no sense in the arguments supporting the enslavement of Israel to our politicians.

Originally Posted by HumbledByGrace

America is not, and has not been blessing Israel.. Ever. At least that is what my Jewish friends from Israel have said. They view that the US is just using Israel to fullfill it's interests and tossing it out whenever Israel does something that we don't approve of. And that is really true. We are hedging our bets on Israel by giving 15 billion to the nations around Israel. We are just trying to force people to look after our interests.

..

Since 1947
No other country has loaned more money to Israel than the US (roughly 3 billion a year until 2007)
No other country has sold more weapons to Israel than the US (they now mostly make their own)
(France did for a short while during this time)
In the war of 1964 the US was Israels biggest ally.
The US was the first country to recognize Israel as a nation after the 3 day war.
Woodrow Wilson partially supported the Balfour Declaration.
Truman supported the Zionist movement.
Henry Kissinger was a Jew but was concerned with not getting the US involved in Palestinian conflicts. The Palestinians conflict has always been a sore spot in US relations, but has never stopped the two countries from being allies. Despite this, Obama (thru Hillary Clinton) has asked Israel to not build in West Bank (Palestinian) areas.