Originally Posted by ::PreciousinChrist::

we are not saving ourselves but we are working out our salvation by DOING what God tells us to do THROUGH HIS WORD!

In other words :
THE WORD OF GOD IS WHAT WILL KEEP US SAVED UNTIL THE DAY OF THE LORD IF DO WHAT IT SAYS CONTINUALLY AND CONCIOUSLY.
we shall then be called faithful servants of the Lord.

same thing different words. this is exactly what salvation by works means. you have to do something to make/keep your self saved. But then its not of grace is it?

Your saying that only the method to become saved and keep self saved is what God provides but we need to use the method to save our selves.

I don't believe that's true. because bible says this about our salvation:


(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(Joh 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So believing is the only thing required to save you. God's promise is that he that believes is not condemmed. if what you say was true, that we need to follow God's word to be saved, then if you would believe in God you might still not be saved... and then what John 3:18 says would be lie.

so again God's promise is that if you believe you will be saved. and not that if you follow Jesus properly and well enough and read bible you might be saved.

(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


And the apostoles always teached that salvation is without works:

(Rom 4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Rom 4:6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

And that means remission of sins. By grace and not that we must become sinless.

(Act 10:43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(Rom 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
(Rom 8:32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
(Rom 8:33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
(Rom 8:34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
(Rom 8:35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Originally Posted by ::PreciousinChrist::

We are not trying to save ourselves by "working out our own salvation" Because " it is God who works in us both to will and for His good pleasure".
We are already saved through Christ BUT now we need to choose to walk in the Spirit and lay aside every filthiness of the flesh! That's where the "working out comes in", that's where we are fighting the good fight of faith and laying hold of eternal life.

I will respond to the "working out our own salvation" part a bit later, but first I will reply to your words that I put in red. I think we need to choose to submit to Christ and let Him clean away all our filthiness; my choosing - my effort of will - doesn't have a lot, if anything, to do with it. I can desire all day long to try to do good (been there, done that, failed miserably) but if I am not anchored on the Rock and submitting to Him I will be the boat tossed about on the sea and the house built on sand.

Without meaning to be sarcastic, if someone is trying to rid persistent sin from his life by striving to be a better person (which is pride-centered and only partly trusting God to do it for you), my question would be, "how's that working out for you"? It works if God is the one who changes you. God took a 30 year addiction I had and ended it instantaneously after I became born-again, it had nothing tod o with me doing anything for Him. The way I look at it is, when God touches you, things change. Not, when I try to change He will help me to change. Big difference.
And I know it is a permanent change, all glory, honor and praise to the Father. He is the author and finisher/perfecter of my faith. I had nothing to do with it (other than responding to the call that He put in my heart to respond to). So you can see why I can sound a bit weary about all this "I have to get rid of filthiness in my life", and "I need to do this and that" business. I just need to trust God that His changes are effectual and powerful and that He doesn't need my help. In fact, if I try to help Him I'll probably screw it up somehow.

Just as my sins almost knew no bounds when I was apart from Christ, and I was unable to be good (I never even tried to or wanted to), so too, any good I now do is because of Christ, not me. So I don't worry about trying to get rid of filthiness and wickedness in my life, God has shown me that not only is He more than willing, but he is exceedingly able to do it, and has done it for me. I sit back and say, WOW, what a relief, I couldn't have done it without you!

It's not that I am trying to be lazy about things, or don't try to be good, it's that I had done it my way long enough in my life that I want to do it His way. Many times in scripture God says to the effect : "get out of my way and let me do my thing". That's what I want to do. If I for instance have a tongue that can't stop cursing, I will pray for Him to heal me of this and create a right and new spirit in me so that I won't desire to do that any more. I will not, on my own effort, try to clean up my language, as if I am helping God with this. Is my approach wrong? Am I being irresponsible? I hope not. I just want to rest in the Lord and give Him the right (that's already His) to work out my life for me, on His terms.

Like 1 Cor 5:17 says : "old things have passed away, all things have become new". Old sinful desires pass away, new desires come to life in us. The second I was born-again, things that I used to like started to repulse me, and not because I simply decided I shouldn't like them anymore and should try not to do them (ie: put away sinful behavior through my own effort), but because the new has no part with the old, nor the old with the new. I don't have to strive to put away something (sin) that Christ put away for me. I sin much less than I used to (I am boasting here of God, not myself) because of Him, not me. He is steering the boat and has set the course for me, and if I am doing something wrong He will let me know.

Now about the "working out our own salvation" part : I think when we are told to do this it is so that we can know if we are "in the faith", ie the faith delivered to the saints, as opposed to having a cultic belief, like Mormonism for example. Working out our salvation is not meant to imply that we have a part to play in maintaining our salvation through some effort and works, or change of behavior. Anything other than trusting in God is not faith, so do we trust Him totally for what He can do, or do we think He will only do it if we do something for Him? Does God need anything? Anything He asks us to do, it is because it is for our own well-being, not because we NEED to do it.

Eternal life is a gift of God. If I can liken it to a contract, if it was a gift of man it would come with 50 small-print lines that I would have to sign and agree to, which is no gift. But God's gift is free and irrevocable, without strings (other than believe and trust). Otherwise if I can alter or give back the gift isn't it then a powerless and insecure one? But there is no insecurity in Christ, on the contrary there is nothing more secure. He loved us first, we didn't love Him. He gave us faith to love Him and reconciled us to Him while we were wicked. He saved us completely because that is His nature, being plenteous in mercy with a long-reaching arm to save. So where do I fit in that picture??? There is no I. God is not my co-pilot, HE IS THE PILOT. :dirol:

So for that reason I cannot agree with you that : "we need to lay aside every filthiness of the flesh because that's where the 'working out comes in'.
And regarding the second half of your statement : ''that's where we are fighting the good fight of faith and laying hold of eternal life", eternal life was given to me and I cannot lay a hold on something I now have forever more. Nor is trying to be good by putting away evil behavior something that keeps me saved. Jesus keeps me saved, always has and always will. God exhorts us to do many things, but not so we can attain something that He already gave us. Just as the parents' love, protection and security for their children is not contingent on the child's behavior, even though the child is exhorted to behave. God bless you sister!

I agree with all the verses that you have given above and they are true regarding salvation Jari.

The Word of God is also clear regarding losing your salvation :

Hebrews 6:1-12
Hebrews 10:23-39
2 Peter 2:20-22

God bless you

Dear Peace Seeker,
when I say " work our own salvation" Iam not talking about performance-based rituals to keep my salvation intact.
As you said, " it is so that we can know if we are "in the faith"". It is to continually believe in Christ and exercise ourselves unto godliness.

2 John 1:8 says :
"Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward."

2 Cor 13:5 says :
"Examine youselves whether you are the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you? - unless indeed you are disqualified."

God has said to us, "I have set before you Life and Death therefore choose Life...." Deut 30:19

So who is choosing Life here?
God has indeed given us a responsibilty as children of God, to make sure that we continually choose life, by believing in Christ.


When we do His Word, we are letting Him cleanse us from all filthiness of the flesh.

2 Cor 7:1
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."


God bless you!

Originally Posted by ::PreciousinChrist::

The Word of God is also clear regarding losing your salvation :

Hebrews 6:1-12
Hebrews 10:23-39
2 Peter 2:20-22

i think you are mistaken here... the verses don't actually mention born again believer losing salvation at all. each belong to their own topic found from the context. 2 Peter 2 was about false teachers and hebrews maturing in faith. sadly what we find in common both of these letters is that some people forsake Jesus altogether because they don't believe in Him as savior.

if there is way to "lose salvation" that forsaking salvation it self, found in Jesus .

Originally Posted by ::PreciousinChrist::

Dear Peace Seeker,
when I say " work our own salvation" Iam not talking about performance-based rituals to keep my salvation intact.
As you said, " it is so that we can know if we are "in the faith"". It is to continually believe in Christ and exercise ourselves unto godliness.

2 John 1:8 says :
"Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward."

2 Cor 13:5 says :
"Examine youselves whether you are the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you? - unless indeed you are disqualified."

God has said to us, "I have set before you Life and Death therefore choose Life...." Deut 30:19

So who is choosing Life here?
God has indeed given us a responsibilty as children of God, to make sure that we continually choose life, by believing in Christ.


When we do His Word, we are letting Him cleanse us from all filthiness of the flesh.

2 Cor 7:1
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."


God bless you!

Hi PreciousinChrist,

I realize that there are many verses like the ones you quoted that instruct us how to live, our responsibilities, etc. My point was just that salvation does not require a performance-based walk with the Lord in order to keep the salvation that Christ secured for us. Regarding cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, Paul said that in response to the sexual immorality that was present in the Corinth church. Gal. 5:19-21 lists such things, and others, and declares that those that do them will not inherit the kingdom of God. So that leads us right back to the part about our need to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith, because those that practice such things are not truly born-again.

Lastly, re your statement that : "God has indeed given us a responsibilty as children of God, to make sure that we continually choose life, by believing in Christ". When we choose Christ - at the time we are born-again - Christ gives us an incorruptible inheritance wherein we have passed from death into life, and I don't think we have to consciously choose life in an ongoing manner in order to continue to have that life. We have that life because Christ gave it to us, and when He gives it to us He also gives us the faith and grace to remain in Him. God bless!

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Willful sinning is something that is done without caring how wrong it is. Despising the blood of the covenant thinking that it is a blank check to do whatever we want when we want it no matter what. That is different than struggling with a remaining vice that is despised, but still believing that vice to be covered by the blood of Jesus. Hating the sin, but loving the grace. Where the salvation can be lost (although He is longsuffering and patient) is when the sin is loved above the sacrifice.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

It seems that those who draw back unto perdition have forsaken grace and rather have went the way of thinking that no repentance is ever needed. The question then could be, can grace become too comfortable. The conscious seared rather than cleared. The capacity to be stirred to repentance lost. This whole passage is not talking about unbelievers, but believers. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, for He will use what ever means to draw us back. It is our responcibility to keep in the word, rather than keep in the world, to stay in prayer, and ask frequently for Him to search the heart, for who can know it's depths other than His Spirit. Confidence comes with the knowledge of grace. Grace comes with the acknowledgement of sin.

Beware when you think you stand lest you fall. That indicates that if you are concerned about that vice, and taking it to Jesus, then with patience wait for the deliverance, trusting that He will work His Fathers will into the soul in His way and His time are not likely to fall so far away to despise the blood of the covenant. That very person is not despising it, but holding it as the only way of freedom. Those who do not acknowlege that all sin an fall short, or who do not care or believe they should search their own heart, but have the attitude that they have obtained perfection (even though it is quite obvious they are gossips, slanderers, prideful vipers wrapped up in religiosity) are the ones who will fall into the hands of the living God for they have despised the bloodcovenant by trusting in their own pride that says "you will stand and not fall".

There is a difference in arrogant pride and confidence in the covering and deliverance by God through the blood covenant of Jesus.

I believe that we can choose to lose salvation. This one thing is what keeps me on my knees everyday asking God to count me worthy when He comes in the louds for the First ressurection. If I would automatically think im going to heaven ill become lukewarm and too comfortable in my walk. Thats not good read the message to the Laodicean churches which is us nowadays. Well in Rev. the letters to all the churches Jesus always said "to he that overcometh" which can only mean that we have some overcoming to do with the help of Christ. This thread can go on forever. But it is a matter of right or wrong. There can only be one right answer. Gods Word CANNOT contradict itself. Jari with all due respect and the rest that believe you dont habe to do anything I pray that you guys would benovercomers. Teir would not be that much striving to overcome if you already think your in. And the closer we get to His Coming the worsy times are going to get. God bless. Remember there CANNOT be contradiction. So we have to do what Paul said in 1 Tim.2:15 says. Rightly dividing the word of truth.

Originally Posted by Michelle71

Despising the blood of the covenant thinking that it is a blank check to do whatever we want when we want it no matter what.

it means what it says to me. counting Jesus blood unworthy to save you. and leaving Jesus without faith in him as savior.

deliberatly sinning would then be sinning when you don't really have to, but sinning just for the sake of being sinner.which is rebellion. and while God would accept you with your flaws you sin deliberataly just to keep him away... or don't believe it's worth being godly but pursuing sins pay.