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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit Carson View Post
    Some of that stuff gets a bit over my head. Some of it may even be for the new earth , the new creation where the meek will inherit the earth.
    Kit
    There are no instructions given in the Bible for "the age to come". All of it applies now.
    *- BAC -*

  2. #22
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    1Jn 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


    1Jn 3:3-6 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


    1Jn 3:7-10 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


    1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


    1Jn 5:16-19 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.


    The way i understand is this that born again does not sin out of will although its possible that we sin but not because we have pleasure to do evil but God has given new heart.
    Its difficult to explain but i understand it being a result of God's spirit in us and our love toward God that gives us will to do good although you may not have strength for it.


    Rom 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by B-A-C View Post
    There are no instructions given in the Bible for "the age to come". All of it applies now.
    Yes I accept that. I will go sit in the corner. Lol! Trying not to lead the tread astray, but I see too much meek in the world of today. But do not want to get sidetracked on that.

    Kit
    An easy way, a smile and a sense of humor, a love for life and a love for God, that is me.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jari View Post

    The way i understand is this that born again does not sin out of will although its possible that we sin but not because we have pleasure to do evil but God has given new heart.
    Then one is not truly "born again" if they sin, or even if there is the possiblity for us to sin. And as long as we are in this flesh body it is ALWAYS possible for us to sin. For God's word tells us;

    1 John 3
    [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Who amoung us can make such a claim? "I CANNOT SIN!"

    Just what does it mean to be truly born again?

    It means being born into the God family. It means being as the angels and God; having spirit bodies. It means being able to go to and fro as the wind and no one knows where you come from are go;

    John 3
    [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    So tell me....which one of us has been truly born again? Which one of us has been given a spirit body like God and the angels? Which one of us has been born into the family of God? And which one of us can come and go as the wind?

    When we are TRULY born again it will be IMPOSSIBLE for us to sin. Can any of us say that today?

    .

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eccl12v13 View Post
    Then one is not truly "born again" if they sin, or even if there is the possiblity for us to sin. And as long as we are in this flesh body it is ALWAYS possible for us to sin. For God's word tells us;

    1 John 3
    [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Who amoung us can make such a claim? "I CANNOT SIN!"

    Just what does it mean to be truly born again?

    It means being born into the God family. It means being as the angels and God; having spirit bodies. It means being able to go to and fro as the wind and no one knows where you come from are go;

    John 3
    [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    So tell me....which one of us has been truly born again? Which one of us has been given a spirit body like God and the angels? Which one of us has been born into the family of God? And which one of us can come and go as the wind?

    When we are TRULY born again it will be IMPOSSIBLE for us to sin. Can any of us say that today?

    .
    Do you say you never sin? i think theres difference between legalism and spiritual will not to sin.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonahofAkron View Post
    Great post. Difficult for me to go with a couple of the ideas, as you and I have discussed already, Gary, but still great. I had a couple of questions.
    Hi JonahofAkron. I know that you and I are still on opposite sides of the pond both looking down trying to figure out why the other isn't seeing quite the same reflection we are.

    Note: The word 'Torah' is the transliterated Hebrew word which is translated 'law' in our English versions.

    If sin's definition is Torah, what changed that?
    Sins definition has never been Torah. Torah has however defined some sin for those who it was written for. Sins definition is iniquity or lawlessness. The Torah did not and could not possibly have covered all of the various ways a man could sin Gal 3:21. If it could have then righteousness should have been by the Torah.

    A favorite verse that misleads many is 1 Jn 3:4 which states:

    "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law (Torah): for sin is the transgression of the law (Torah)."

    The verse is literally translated:

    Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,

    Many in Abraham's day practiced lawlessness 430 years before the Torah of Moses. Sodom was full of them. The verse isn't saying that sin is defined as transgression of the Torah.

    Where is and why the change?
    No change. Those things that are in the Torah are still defining some things as sin for those who are under the Torah. This includes non believing Jews. I am still uncertain about Jewish believers at this time.

    Torah defined Messiah's character; how are we not to employ that for ourselves?
    I look at this and am puzzled. You actually think that Torah defined Christ's character? The very Word of God who spoke the Torah into existence? This cannot be. The creation does not define the creator. The need for Christ was 2 part. One sacrifice for sin. Two was to be the complete living and breathing Torah that leaves no question for exposing sin.

    Does emulating Him in character mean living as He lived?
    This is a deep question with an equally difficult answer. Jesus went into a mountain to pray. Jesus fasted 40 days before his temptation. Jesus did miracles and healed people. Jesus went to a wedding. Jesus was nailed to a cross. Jesus spent most of his time teaching Jews. Jesus didn't own a house. Jesus walked everywhere he went except for his triumphant entry and boating crossed the water. Jesus wouldn't eat pig. Jesus had a violent outburst in the Temple of God. Jesus drank fermented wine and provided it for others. As an adult Jesus never left his native country. Jesus purposely selected a man who was a thief to carry the bag. One whom he knew would betray him. Jesus taught in the physical Temple of God.

    There are a lot of things about the way Jesus lived that I will never do. But to emulate his character would include doing a lot of things he did. We go out to seek and save that which is lost. We consider others better than ourselves. We pray. We read the world of God. We intercede on others behalf. We attend events that we are bidden too. We eat and drink with sinners for the purpose of bringing them to God. We love those who don't love us.

    Jesus followed the Torah of Moses which spoke of him. Jesus was brought under the Torah by birth. 8 days after he was born by the ritual circumcision that his parents had done according the the Torah of Moses. The person of Jesus is unchangeable. The Torah had no effect on his character. Jesus is Jesus regardless of outside influence. It was of his character to obey the law that was over him. And the same should apply to us. We ought to obey the law that is over us. The question for each of us is exactly what law is over us?

    For me, a gentile believer, the law over me is the Law of Christ. It is a law that says that I am to be conformed to his image. To put on Christ. To put on Christ is not to observe the Torah of Moses. Although there are a lot of things in the Torah that still apply when putting on Christ. I shall not kill, commit adultery, steal, lie or covet. I will not hit or curse my parents. I will not follow a multitude to do evil. But these things I would not do even if I didn't know these laws existed, if I were following the Law of Christ. Those who are not self centered do not do these things just as Christ is not self centered.

    If not Torah, where the explicit command?
    I don't think I understand what you are asking for here.

    If all become part of Israel, as Romans 11 says, how does this effect our following Torah?
    Interesting. You interpret Romans 11 to be saying we all have become part of Israel. Maybe in a different place you can give me a verse for verse commentary on that chapter so I can see what you see. Since this thread is about defining sin we will save that for elsewhere (Although since you believe you were made part of Israel that would make all the difference for your definition of sin and why you believe your under Torah). The only comment I will make on the issue is that I do not share your view of Romans 11. I have not been made part of Israel. I am a child of Abraham.

    I hope that I have done justice answering your questions. Please feel free to ask any other thread related questions you might have.

    Have an excellent day in Jesus

    Gary

  7. #27
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    What is a sin unto death? What is a sin not unto death?

    1 Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


    These two verses have had me scratching my head for a long time. I have heard many different approaches to defining these two types of sin and nothing satisfied. One school of thought says that you have to use the Torah to understand what laws led to an execution and which did not. Another says that Ananias showed the sin unto death. Others still have said that it is dependent upon the degree of the sin committed but then failed to show a biblical method for their explanation.

    Any way that the verse is explained it must include everything in the verse. According to the verse you can 'see' your brother sin these sins. You can tell the difference between those unto death and those not unto death simply what you 'see'. I think about the example of sin that we have in the bible and ask what can I see? In Gal 2 we find Paul who 'sees' Peter sinning. Can he tell whether it is unto death or not? We have Simon the sorcerer who Peter saw sin. Could Peter tell? Paul reproved Peter just as Peter reprove Simon but does this tell us if the sin was unto death or not?

    In 1 Cor 5 we read about the fornicator who was to be delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh for his sin so that his soul could be saved. They knew of his sin 'saw' it so to speak. Could they tell? Unfortunately the word 'destruction' is an accurate but very poor choice for this verse. In 2 Cor 2:6 they used the word 'punishment' instead which is a better choice. So they sent him out to punish him. Sin not unto death? Remember we must be able to tell by 'seeing'.

    Other sins spoken of in scripture include the widow who is said to have damnation because she cast of her first faith 2 Tim 5:11-12. The weak brother who ate meat sacrificed unto idols against his conscience in Rom 14. The man who became an apostate in Heb 6. We see all these examples but yet there is no definitive way to tell whether they be unto death or not.

    What needs to be defined is what does unto death mean? Are we speaking about physical death like Ananias? Or are we talking about the second death? Here we have extra problems. The war of the doctrines begins. If OSAS is true then it has to be physical death as under OSAS a christian cannot die the second death. Lets assume for a moment that OSAS is valid doctrine. The sin must be unto physical death and we must be able to know that by sight. Of all the biblical examples only Ananias fits the sin unto death as he is the only one of all them who died. So how can we tell by seeing if someone commits a sin unto death in this case? They drop dead right in front of you! So in this light you should pray for your brethren who you see sin that do not drop dead on the spot.

    That said, I do not hold to that position as I do not believe in OSAS. Please DO NOT use this thread to begin discussion OSAS as it has its own thread or two.

    For another view. The more I thought about these texts, the more I became convinced that the death spoken of was the sin unto death. I still had the same problem to overcome and that was how do I tell by 'seeing' them sin whether it is unto death or not? It also had to be something that was going to work with all the other doctrines of the bible. I began to see common things in the example texts of sin committed. For the most part each had a label along with them. The fornicator in 1 Cor 5 was punished so his soul could be saved. The widow would have damnation as well as the weak brother. Peter and Simon have no mention of punishment except Simon is told to pray to be forgiven. The apostate's end is to be burned.

    What can we see in all of this?

    Answer: Each of the instances that have damnation of sorts assigned to them are people who are willfully entering into sinful situations. The others like Peter who sinned in weakness or Simon in ignorance were not assigned damnation.

    The answer of the two questions using simple scriptures:

    What is the sin unto death?

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    What is the sin not unto death?

    1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdemoss View Post
    What is the sin unto death?

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    What is the sin not unto death?

    1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    I am curious about sin that is wilful and sin that is not wilful. Could you give examples of both?

  9. #29
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    1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    The word See doesnt nessarily mean to literally see but i t can also mean to: be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot.

    that's from greek strong of the word.


    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    but that does not mean you could lose your salvation.

    because.


    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    and we have God's spirit always.

    But living after flesh still causes us to die spiritually:

    Rom 8:12-13 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. (13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    Still we have God's spirit and are His children and like bible says:

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    And again like this verse explains:


    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    So if you have God's spirit your still eternally His.
    Although we should avoid sin.
    Especially those sins that are unto death.
    But we will always be saved because God has given us His spirit:

    Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    Like this verse says the Spirit was given until to the day of redemption:

    Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    Last edited by jari; 11-23-11 at 08:25 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by agua View Post
    I am curious about sin that is wilful and sin that is not wilful. Could you give examples of both?
    You know it is wrong to murder....but you do it anyway. Wilfull sin.

    You do not know it is wrong to have respect of person.....but you do it anyway. Not wilfull sin!

    How can a fair God charge you with a law of His that you broke, but you did not know it was a law?

    God will be a fair judge.


    .

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