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  1. #111
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    [QUOTE=RJ;188591]
    Quote Originally Posted by JonahofAkron View Post
    Although a response to this post may be a bit off topic, I hope that you allow the intrusion, Gary.
    I would like to admit that I am skeptical of any OSAS stance and do not believe it to be biblical. This is my contribution to the OP.



    QUOTE]

    I would like to admit that I am skeptical of any OSAS stance and do not believe it to be biblical. This is my contribution to the OP.


    I believe OSAS is Biblical but you will not find it literally as "you can't loose your salvation" or "once saved, always saved", it comes from the entire Bible in bits and pieces and what God has done for us through the New Covenant of "God in Us". Here are just a couple of Biblical references: ( if you would like to explain these as you understand them, that would be helpful)

    • Jesus Teaches Nicodemas:
    John 3:
    3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]

    4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit.

    I see nothing in the Bible or in life that once born of anything, that there is such a thing as being unborn!


    • Hebrews 13:5
    5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
    “Never will I leave you;
    never will I forsake you.”[a]

    Once saved, once God in you, there is nothing in the Bible that says he will go back on his promise of never leaving you.
    you were born once of a woman into the family of man
    when did you cease to be born into anything other that the family of man?

    answer the question Nicodemus asked Jesus

    4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    when did you go from mans family (flesh)to God's family(spirit) ?

  2. #112
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    Great call! See how these verses show a distinction between the Father's commandments and Jesus's?
    Ephesians 4:5
    one Lord, one faith, one baptism;






    The Old Covenant can be found in Ex 20-24. It begins with the Ten Commandments which God spoke unto them and is followed by the rest of the law. The last portion of the scripture in Ex 24 details the sealing of the covenant by the blood of the sacrifice being sprinkled on the book, the altar and the people.

    The New Covenant isn't as easily laid out as the Old. But it was made possible by Israel rejecting Jesus as their Lord and Savior (Jn 1:11). The apostles were instructed to go out into all the world and make disciples, teaching them to observe all things Jesus had commanded them (Mt 28:19). They would have understood this to be Jews only as it wasn't revealed to them yet about the gentiles. Paul would later be selected as the apostle to the Gentiles (Acts 22:21). He delivered the gospel to the people (1 Cor 15:3-11). Upon hearing the gospel one must believe and repent (Acts 26:20). One must continue then in the faith (1 Cor 13:5) that is justified by works (James 2:24) of obedience to Christ (Heb 5:9) until Jesus returns or death occurs.
    the Old and New covenant are the same omnly one difference

    the blood

    old had animals blood
    New has Jesus blood

    they both have the same laws.


    Jesus told us to keep his commandments
    which are the commandments in Exodus 20


    Keeping the old commandments, yes. But we are not under them.
    are you saying we are not under

    Exodus 20


    1And God spake all these words, saying,
    2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
    3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
    8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
    13Thou shalt not kill.
    14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    15Thou shalt not steal.
    16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17Thou shalt not covet

    tell which one of these you are not under and which one you cannot keep?

  3. #113
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    Hi Ozell,

    Thanks for those responses.

    it says call no man master, Father, rabbi, or reverend

    we cannot add things to the bible or even claim Jesus meant something he did not say
    The word "Sir" is a shortened form of "sire" which literally means father. Although the literal alphabetical words for "father" and "Sir" are different, the MEANING is very much the same.

    I think you will have a very difficult time (along with losing a fair bit of credibility) trying to argue a technicality on the basis of which letters of the alphabet are used to make up words describing the same meaning.

    The same is true for "Mr." It is a shortened form of "master".

    let act out on this first before we go and act on something he did not say
    But, he DID say it.

    what are we saved from?
    I suppose there could be a thousand different answers to this question, and, in the eyes of God, each and every one of them could be right if God feels those answers are sincere.

    The point *I* am trying to make is about what Jesus described as the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. There is a REASON why he forbid us from indulging these special titles for one another. It's similar to why he told us to beware of authorities in long robes who love positions of importance.

    true

    yet this is written

    but, sir, mr, mrs, is not
    Sure, in the strictest, most legalistic, hardcore adherence to the letters of the alphabet which are printed on the pages of the KJV I got these teachings form, you are correct. The words containing the letters, and ONLY the letters "Sir" and "Mr." are not found in the verses I presented.

    But then again, are we really interested in the spirit of what Jesus was teaching, or the exact translation into the English alphabetical letters of the words used to express his teachings at the time those teachings were recorded?

    Don't disappoint me, Ozell.

    what about when men called other men lord, when sarah called Abraham lord, surely God should have checked Sarah for it.
    Hey, if Abraham, or Sarah, or those other men, whoever they may be, are you lord and savior, then by all means, trust in their example. (surely, Ozell, you had to see that coming...)

    Anyway, as for me, *I* want to talk about what Jesus said to do.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by will View Post
    We just like to think that they are wrong and only we know how to interpret the Scriptures properly. What a sad way to show love to fellow believers. Please stop and rethink about what you are saved for. For sure the Lord didn't save us just so we can bicker about who is right and who is wrong.
    I couldn't agree more! I think God gives all of us different amounts and kinds of wisdom, knowledge, etc. (the parable of the talents) from the Holy Spirit, all in His good time and according to His good pleasure. And the one who receives more should not feel better than the other, as that would be boasting, which God disapproves of.

    We should be humbled before our Lord. I have nothing that the Lord has not given to me, so what do I have to be proud of or to boast of? I am thankful that God has given us teachers - those that are mature in Christ - on this forum and elsewhere, and I pray that one day God will make me all that He desires me to be, to His glory.

    Until that day I will just rest in His wonderful saving grace and try not to judge or be contentious with another believer, just because he may not be at the same place spiritually as someone else, or is having a hard time understanding something.

    We've all been there.

    The whole law is summed up in LOVE. Jesus is LOVE, so let us love one another as He so loves us!

  5. #115
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    Hi Jonahofakron....it is a pleasure to meet you. I must admit that I am by no means a master theologian. Nor do I make myself crystal clear. There are many times that I come back to something I wrote and think 'what'? Please bear with me as I try to articulate my thoughts.

    I don't have a lot of experience with Christians who believe that we are to live out the Torah. It is an interesting concept but one that I never got the impression of while reading scripture.

    You have intrigued me by your comments and questions. I need to take some time and re-evaluate my current position. I am currently somewhat confused. But this is good. Clarity is the end result and growth. If we are to observe the 10 commandments including the Sabbath then I need better understanding concerning certain scriptures. Please help me.

    Your position is that 2 Cor 3 is pertaining to the priesthood. I can't see that. All I see is the replacement of the commandments with the ministration of the spirit which brings true righteousness.

    7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

    What ordinances is he talking of here?
    Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    How do you interpret this? What does he mean by no letting anyone judge me in respect to the Sabbath?

    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    And why weren't the Ten Commandments included in this letter to the Gentiles? This was about keeping the law and the Gentiles. I know Paul went on in Romans to name 5 of the commandments as examples of loving our neighbor but Paul was involved in the writing of this letter to those he were an Apostle to.

    23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

    Your arguments about Jesus and what he taught were definitely thought provoking but many questions linger about scripture that seemingly opposes the idea that we are obligated to the Ten Commandments because of NC teaching concerning the Sabbath.

    In Isaiah God is definitely passionate about his Sabbaths. But again this is about the OC as it speaks of burnt offerings. Are you doing sacrifices and burnt offerings too? I highly doubt it but I have to ask.




    Ozell, I haven't forgot about you. I did want to add that I have thought about your position on 'being saved' and I think that we hold much of the same belief. I agree with you that no one can know absolutely for sure until judgement day. The question has to be answered "Did my works justify my faith?". "Do I really believe what I say I do?" We can deceive our own selves.

    BTW are you in Chicago?

    I hope you have a wonderful day.

    Gary

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdemoss View Post
    Hi Jonahofakron....it is a pleasure to meet you. I must admit that I am by no means a master theologian. Nor do I make myself crystal clear. There are many times that I come back to something I wrote and think 'what'? Please bear with me as I try to articulate my thoughts.
    I completely understand. I, too, have to articulate to the best of my ability as I am not on the level of many of the posters in this forum.

    I don't have a lot of experience with Christians who believe that we are to live out the Torah. It is an interesting concept but one that I never got the impression of while reading scripture.
    Not to worry. We don't bite.

    You have intrigued me by your comments and questions. I need to take some time and re-evaluate my current position. I am currently somewhat confused. But this is good. Clarity is the end result and growth. If we are to observe the 10 commandments including the Sabbath then I need better understanding concerning certain scriptures. Please help me.
    Your position is truly that of wisdom and I hope to emulate your stance as we continue in this dialogue. Thank you for your candid nature.

    Your position is that 2 Cor 3 is pertaining to the priesthood. I can't see that. All I see is the replacement of the commandments with the ministration of the spirit which brings true righteousness.
    I apologize for not being specific enough. Your misunderstanding about my position is entirely my fault. I was speaking in a relaxed manner that did not fully articulate the point I wanted to make. Let me try again.

    The point in both Hebrews and 2 Corinthians 3 is the effect of Messiah's substituted death penalty for the believer. The veil and the countenance of Moses are the primary points of contention here.

    7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
    The story to read for context is Moses' descent from Mt. Sinai. He hides his face from the people in Exodus 34 because it shines, reflecting the glory of the lord; this was not to be permanent. It eventually faded because Moses was a sinful man like all of us. The reason for the fading of his shining face is the fact that sin and it's punishment, death, separate us from YHWH.

    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
    Even though Moses can reflect the glory of God in spite of his sinfulness, how much more will the shining of believers be glorious when Messiah takes our sin from us?

    9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
    Exactly what I just said. This is associated with believers in Messiah.

    10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
    Moses' face, though reflecting God's glory, was not originally this way: it is God that made it shine.

    11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
    Permanent reflection of Him is what remains because of the Spirit.

    What ordinances is he talking of here?
    Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    As far as I understand the Greek, the phrase is actually handwriting of charges-as in 'list of sins'....I'm certain this is the point of the text and a necessary one at that.

    How do you interpret this? What does he mean by no letting anyone judge me in respect to the Sabbath?
    Writing to a community that is living in the midst of pagans, it seems far more plausible to believe Paul is telling this congregation to act in accordance with Messiah, not worrying about the fact that the practices of the community run counter to those of Messiah.

    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    If the point is righteous living, the Torah is the standard and always has been.

    And why weren't the Ten Commandments included in this letter to the Gentiles? This was about keeping the law and the Gentiles. I know Paul went on in Romans to name 5 of the commandments as examples of loving our neighbor but Paul was involved in the writing of this letter to those he were an Apostle to.
    Why would he need to include something that is already known to the believers? I see no reason to believe that the absence of the commands is because they are not in use. It is the opposite.

    23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
    We should also look at the reason why this is written. The context is the Gentile believers being allowed into the Body of Messiah and the logistics of entry. Judaizers say that following the whole Torah and ritual circumcision (not just physical circumcision, but a sacrifice and baptism-showing conclusively that, since they do this upon believing [accepting Messiah's sacrifice is a twofold action of sacrificial fulfillment and circumcision of the heart], they shouldn't be made to do it again) is what one needs for salvation because it 'ensures' entry into Israel. Fortunately, this isn't how Israel was to operate and is not how Messiah operates-it has always been faith. Entrance into Israel has always been contingent on the circumcision of the heart.

    The things that Jacob and the elders ask of the Gentiles is only what is necessary for congregating with other believers, as 'Moses is taught in the synagogues every Sabbath'.

    Your arguments about Jesus and what he taught were definitely thought provoking but many questions linger about scripture that seemingly opposes the idea that we are obligated to the Ten Commandments because of NC teaching concerning the Sabbath.
    What is this teaching?

    In Isaiah God is definitely passionate about his Sabbaths. But again this is about the OC as it speaks of burnt offerings. Are you doing sacrifices and burnt offerings too? I highly doubt it but I have to ask.
    Isaiah discusses a future redemption coming and then goes on to say that Sabbaths are to be kept. I cannot see how we take it in any other way. Perhaps I've misread the issue. I will study it again to make sure that I completely understand the context.

    And, no, I do not offer burnt sacrifices. It isn't practiced without a temple or ark with the mercy seat. Paul and Jesus both partook in feasts and the sacrificial system.

    It is a pleasure to discuss with you. Let me know what you think. I will probably move some of this to another thread.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peace Seeker View Post
    I couldn't agree more! I think God gives all of us different amounts and kinds of wisdom, knowledge, etc. (the parable of the talents) from the Holy Spirit, all in His good time and according to His good pleasure. And the one who receives more should not feel better than the other, as that would be boasting, which God disapproves of.

    We should be humbled before our Lord. I have nothing that the Lord has not given to me, so what do I have to be proud of or to boast of? I am thankful that God has given us teachers - those that are mature in Christ - on this forum and elsewhere, and I pray that one day God will make me all that He desires me to be, to His glory.

    Until that day I will just rest in His wonderful saving grace and try not to judge or be contentious with another believer, just because he may not be at the same place spiritually as someone else, or is having a hard time understanding something.

    We've all been there.

    The whole law is summed up in LOVE. Jesus is LOVE, so let us love one another as He so loves us!
    I don't think anyone here hate anyone.

    love is keeping the commandments

    we all read the same bible so we all should have the same wisdom and knowledge which comes from the same God.

    Ephesians 4:5
    One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    God is not a respector of people

    Acts 10:34
    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

  8. #118
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    Ozell, I haven't forgot about you. I did want to add that I have thought about your position on 'being saved' and I think that we hold much of the same belief. I agree with you that no one can know absolutely for sure until judgement day. The question has to be answered "Did my works justify my faith?". "Do I really believe what I say I do?" We can deceive our own selves.
    No problem Brother

    if we beleive in Jesus we will do what he says

    Jesus said this

    Matthew 19:15-17


    15And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
    16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Brother Gary

    the young rich man is already alive yet he was seeking another life , life eternal. and the Lord said to him to keep the commandments.

    Keeping the commandments will get a person eternal life.

    Jesus can't lie so this saying must be true, that's if we beleive in the words , every words of Jesus.

    peace in Jesus

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by my_little_pony View Post
    Hi Ozell,

    Thanks for those responses.



    The word "Sir" is a shortened form of "sire" which literally means father. Although the literal alphabetical words for "father" and "Sir" are different, the MEANING is very much the same.

    I think you will have a very difficult time (along with losing a fair bit of credibility) trying to argue a technicality on the basis of which letters of the alphabet are used to make up words describing the same meaning.

    The same is true for "Mr." It is a shortened form of "master".



    But, he DID say it.


    I suppose there could be a thousand different answers to this question, and, in the eyes of God, each and every one of them could be right if God feels those answers are sincere.

    The point *I* am trying to make is about what Jesus described as the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. There is a REASON why he forbid us from indulging these special titles for one another. It's similar to why he told us to beware of authorities in long robes who love positions of importance.



    Sure, in the strictest, most legalistic, hardcore adherence to the letters of the alphabet which are printed on the pages of the KJV I got these teachings form, you are correct. The words containing the letters, and ONLY the letters "Sir" and "Mr." are not found in the verses I presented.

    But then again, are we really interested in the spirit of what Jesus was teaching, or the exact translation into the English alphabetical letters of the words used to express his teachings at the time those teachings were recorded?

    Don't disappoint me, Ozell.



    Hey, if Abraham, or Sarah, or those other men, whoever they may be, are you lord and savior, then by all means, trust in their example. (surely, Ozell, you had to see that coming...)

    Anyway, as for me, *I* want to talk about what Jesus said to do.
    this is something I will look into, but keep in mind that in the USA when you call a person MR, MRS, SIR, MAAM, it is not looked upon as the same as master.

    anyway the Lord knows the intent of the heart.

    next

    the slaves had to call there overseers Master
    the Roman Catholic call there spiritual leader Father
    the Jews call there spiritual leader rabbi (master)
    and the protestants call there spiritual leader reverend

    is it possible that the Lord is speaking on a spiritual level.

  10. #120
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    Luke 13

    24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

    to strive is to put forth some kind of effort, some kind of work.

    what must I do to enter in at the strait gate?

    what is the strait gate?

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