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  1. #1
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    Did Enoch & Elijah really go to heaven?

    We all know that both Enoch & Elijah were "raptured" but many think that they were taken to heaven. My question is how could it have been possible that Enoch and Elijah be taken to heaven if according to Jesus in John 3:13 : No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. I imagine that they went to Abraham's Bosom until the Death & Ressurrection of Christ. What do you guys think?
    Last edited by Seeker Of Jesus; 06-29-11 at 09:32 PM.
    I wish to become translucent as glass so that the Light of Jesus Christ shines through me.

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    To heaven??

    The scripture does not tell us they went to heaven, and Jesus is correct, nobody has when he spoke that.

    Elijah was taken up, and Enoch was just listed a taken.

    The bible also speaks of 3 heavens...

    The Hebrew for Heaven in Elijah case meant lofty sky, or where the sky is, but not God's Heaven where his throne is.

    Where they ended up is not given to us, but Abraham's Bosom was a part of Hell (The nice part, I guess)

    This is just one of the many things we will learn later...

    Jesus Is Lord.

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    I find the concept that people went to "Abraham's bosom" before Christ a bit strange. As far as I know the only place Abraham's bosom is mentioned in scripture is Luke 16 where Jesus used this parable to teach the finality of our destination at death and that we need to harken to God while we are alive. I assume Abraham's bosom was a cultural Jewish belief.

    Luk 16:31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

    A nice prediction of the rejection of the risen Christ too.

    Now if people went to Abraham's bosom before Christ, where did they go before Abraham?

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    We all know that both Enoch & Elijah were "raptured" but many think that they were taken to heaven.
    The Bible says that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11), "Enoch was translated that he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:5), and "God took him" (Genesis 5:24), and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:3). Do these scriptures prove that the three were in heaven (the throne of God) before Jesus was sent to Earth in the flesh?
    John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
    These words were spoken by Jesus himself at a time when only Christ had seen God (John 1:18). And how did He know that no man had ascended up to heaven...the throne of God? Because he came from there! Therefore, what heaven did Elijah go to? What about Enoch and Moses?



    Elijah

    Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind "into heaven" (2 Kings 2:1) by "a chariot of fire, and horses of fire" (verse 11). Yet, over nine hundred years after this event, Jesus Himself said "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). Is this a bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to heaven where God's throne is, even though Jesus said he didn't? If Elijah did not go to heaven, then where did he go?


    Three Heavens

    The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!
    The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25; 34:20, Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'

    Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.
    Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.

    Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39, Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."

    Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).

    The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5; 22:17; 26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.

    The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter. 1:4, Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.

    Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.


    Why Taken Up?

    What was the reason for this unusual act of God? Why did he take Elijah up into the atmosphere? Was it to make him immortal? No! The Scripture says no word about that! In Hebrews 11:13,39, we read about the prophets who lived by faith and died without receiving the promises. So Elijah was not to be made Immortal, for that would give him pre-eminence above Jesus. But what does the Scripture reveal as the reason for this removal? 2 Kings 2:3 and 5 has the answer.

    Notice what the sons of the prophets said to Elisha: "Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day?" (Kings 2:3). Elijah was the leader of the sons of the prophets in that day. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died and a new king was ruling. So what did God do?

    He could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same as disqualifying him. God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well. The only thing God could do would have been to remove Elijah so that another would fulfill the office. This God did do. When he was taken up, Elijah's mantle dropped from him and Elisha picked it up (2 Kings 2:12-15). And what did the mantle mean? In Clarke's Commentary we note that it was "worn by prophets and priests as the simple insignia of their office" (Vol.2, p.484).

    The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with another man who would occupy Elijah's office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died, and Elijah was already aging. So, as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus, God preserves the name and office of His prophet.


    Where did Elijah go?

    This has been the perplexing problem to so many. He did not ascend to the throne of God, because Jesus said so! Also, notice in 2 Kings 3 and 5 that the sons of the prophets knew Elijah would be taken away by God in advance. They believed that Elijah was going to be taken to another location, which is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have dropped him "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2 Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him, to no avail. And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (2 Kings 13:14).

    The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of his removal of Elijah (2 Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king's reign, Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (2 Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (2 Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (2 Chronicles 21:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in the sight of God.

    Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king! The contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of this letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future, Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20).

    This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind. God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king's father, and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat. This letter proves that he was alive someplace else. The Bible does not reveal how much longer Elijah lived after writing the letter, but it does say that it is appointed for all men to die once (Romans 5:12,14, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Hebrews 9:27).

    A similar incident to Elijah's took place in Acts 8:39,40. Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Elijah was, and was transported to another location approximately 30 miles away. Another similar incident happened to Ezekiel, in which the spirit took him away (Ezekiel 3:12). The spirit lifted him up "between the earth and the heaven" and brought him "to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate" (Ezekiel 8:3). Afterwards, the spirit took him up to Chaldea (Ezekiel 11:24).

    Elijah may not have been found because he was transported further away than the fifty men searched (2 Kings 2:17). And, as far as being taken into heaven where God's throne is, we can know that neither Elijah nor Enoch nor Moses were taken into God's heavenly abode, because Jesus said, while he was on this earth, that "no man hath ascendeth to heaven" (John 3:13), and "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18).



    Enoch

    Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.

    Based on Hebrews 11:5,13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13, "no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?
    Let us examine the bold phrase in Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:
    Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."
    The Hebrew for the phrases in bold are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:
    Genesis 42:13, "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?
    Genesis 44:20, "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead."

    Matthew 2:18, "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Where were Rachel's children? Dead.

    Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise?

    Psalms 89:48, "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.
    So what does the phrase "should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death." John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" [see also John 11:26]. This phrase must mean "the second death," since all the Apostles kept Jesus’ sayings and yet died the first death.

    Based on Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" and Hebrews 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12, "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Jesus could enter heaven and dwell in God's presence?


    Enoch’s translation

    But what about his translation in Hebrews 11:5? Does that mean he didn’t die? That’s what most people carelessly assume without proof. The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead, it says he "was not found." According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." Nowhere in the Scripture does ‘translate’ mean to make immortal!

    The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him.

    Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!

    At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God?
    Genesis 5:22, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."
    So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what Genesis 5:22,24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God."

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.



    The Transfiguration

    The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearances of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-10, Luke 9:28-36). After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the vision to no man" (Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a vision! A vision is not a material reality, but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (Acts 10:3,17,19; 11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the future. Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision. Here are other examples:
    Acts 16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the future.
    Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near future, no man shall hurt him.
    Visions should not be interpreted as literal. For example, look at Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), Or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9), is this literal? No. This was a prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the future; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.

    Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.



    Moses

    There cannot be any doubt that Moses died and was buried (Deuteronomy 34:5-6). Therefore, for him to have been in heaven while Jesus was still in the flesh, Moses had to be resurrected from the dead, receive eternal life, and "put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:53). But the Bible is clear that Jesus had to be the first one to be resurrected to eternal life. 1 Corinthians 15:20, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

    The Apostle Paul said Jesus had to be "the firstborn from the dead" and "have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18). If anyone preceded Jesus, then he wasn't the firstborn from the dead. Since some people believe Enoch and Elijah did not die, but that Moses did die, then that would mean Moses had the preeminence over Jesus. Therefore, since Jesus had to be the first to be resurrected unto eternal life and the first to ascend into heaven and stand before God, Moses could not possibly have been in heaven while Jesus was on earth

    Hebrews 11:23-28 talks about Moses living by faith. Now read verses 39-40, which say that Moses did not receive the promise of a resurrection unto eternal life and perfection. This should settle any disputes to the contrary. What about Michael and Satan disputing about Moses' body? Jude 9 does not say Michael won the dispute and then took Moses to heaven. Since there is no mention of heaven here, nor in the entire book of Jude, we should not assume he was taken there.

    Brother Anthony


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  6. #5
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    When taking my view of what scripture says about the heart of the earth, and how I believe all the righteous of old dwelt there as a holding place, there was only one argument that was really a stumbling block for me. There are more stumbling blocks when you believe Jesus simply went up to heaven when He died, so I knew which view I would stick with in the end. However, not having an answer is really hard. The argument is “If all the righteous of the Old Testament went to the heart of the earth when they died, how do you explain Elijah and Enoch? It even specifies Elijah went up to heaven (2 Kings 2:11).” A good question indeed. First, we must establish the foundation to my entire argument with clear scripture.

    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” -John 3:13
    Jesus says that no man has ever entered (the third) heaven but He Himself. This means that not a single dead person prior to Jesus’ resurrection has ever entered that Holy place where God dwells. Knowing this, the first assumption we are to make is the fact they are all somewhere else. This place is the place Jesus called “Paradise,” which is in the heart of the earth. The second assumption we are to make is that Enoch and Elijah did not enter the third heaven. Because of this, any mention of “heaven” in the lives of Enoch and Elijah are to always be seen as a reference to the sky/atmosphere.

    And as Obadiah was in the way, behold, Elijah met him: and he knew him, and fell on his face, and said, Art thou that my lord Elijah? And he answered him, I am: go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. And he said, What have I sinned, that thou wouldest deliver thy servant into the hand of Ahab, to slay me? As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not. And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.” – 1 Kings 18:7-12
    What we need to see in this passage is that Elijah was “translated” (transported) many times before. The Spirit of the Lord acts like a whirlwind and lifts Elijah up into the sky, causing him to fly to various places around the globe, usually mountain tops. Whenever the enemies of God came to look for Elijah , after reported “Elijah sightings” they could never find him. It is apparent that Elijah had a habit of “disappearing” and that it was known amongst the people that the Lord did this thing (v.12). Obadiah’s understanding was that Elijah always was “whisked away” whenever his life might be in jeopardy. Whenever the King’s men came to apprehend Elijah, God picked him up and took him away from the imminent danger, so he should not see his own death.

    And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.” -2 Kings 2:1-3
    Once again, this portion of scripture shows that God was going to translate Elijah again, and the people of Bethel knew the routine. Eventually, Elijah was taken by a whirlwind accompanied by chariots of fire into the sky and out of the sight of Elisha (2 Kings 2:11-12).

    And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.” – 2 Kings 2:16
    Notice that the onlooking people went off to look for Elijah, knowing where God usually takes him. Why would they go on a three day journey through the countryside to find a man who isn’t even on earth? These people knew that Elijah was transported from one “earthly” location to another. This is made clear in the scripture because about seven years later (7 years by comparing II Kings 3:1, I Kings 22:42, and II Kings 8:16) we find Elijah still on earth having written to the King of Judah, Jehoram:

    And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah...” – 2 Chronicles 21:12
    So we see that the scripture shows that Elijah continued to live on earth. According to Josephus (Antiquities Of The Jews 9:2:2), Elijah and Enoch disappeared from the people so that nobody knew of their death. It is interesting to note that the only other person God did this with was Moses (Deut 34:6). Elijah was picked up bodily and placed down in a different location. The prophet Ezekiel experienced the same phenomenon in his day (Eze 3:12-14), and even Philip was identically transported bodily through the air, from a spot between Jerusalem and Gaza, unto the city of Azotus a few miles away (Acts 8:39-40).

    By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” – Hebrews 11:5
    Enoch walked the way God instructed him to. This means that Enoch, as Elijah would later also do, confronted the people with God’s truth. He warned them of what would befall them if they did not turn from their evil ways and turn to the true God, creator of heaven and earth (Jude 1:14). The people always attempted to destroy God’s prophets as they were not willing to hear sound doctrine or acknowledge their sin. The truth of the matter is that God took Enoch away to live out his last days elsewhere or maybe even to die immediately elsewhere, but not at the hands of the wicked who sought to kill him for his preaching against them. We know that Enoch, a mere man, did eventually die. Hebrews 11:13, in referring to Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Sarah, says that these all died in faith.

    So as you can see, scripture is once again proven true and reliable. Jesus is correct when He says “No man has ascended up to heaven.” Enoch, Elijah, and the rest, did not make it passed the first heaven.
    Last edited by Aenon; 09-11-12 at 12:18 PM.

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    Originally Posted by Seeker Of Jesus View Post
    We all know that both Enoch & Elijah were "raptured" but many think that they were taken to heaven. My question is how could it have been possible that Enoch and Elijah be taken to heaven if according to Jesus in John 3:13 : No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. I imagine that they went to Abraham's Bosom until the Death & Ressurrection of Christ. What do you guys think?
    Of Enoch, the Bible account says that he "walked with the true God (Jehovah) three hundred years.....So all the days of Enoch amounted to three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him."(Gen 5:22-24)

    The apostle Paul wrote of Enoch, that "by faith E´noch was transferred (Greek metetethe, meaning "to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport", Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, G3346, not "translated" [Greek diermeneue, G1329] as in the King James Bible) so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred (Greek metetheken) him; for before his transference (Greek metatheseos) he had the witness that he had pleased God well."(Heb 11:5)

    Paul's words concerning Enoch that he was “transferred so as not to see death,” may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated Enoch’s life while he was in the trance so that he did not experience the pangs of death. However, he was not taken to heaven, in view of Jesus’ clear statement at John 3:13, in which Jesus said that "no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man." It appears that, as in the case of Moses’ body, Jehovah God disposed of Enoch’s body, for “he was nowhere to be found.”(Heb 11:5)

    And of Elijah, the Bible account says that "it came about that when Jehovah was to take E·li´jah in a windstorm up to the heavens, E·li´jah and E·li´sha proceeded to go from Gil´gal.....And it came about that as they were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and E·li´jah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens."(2 Kings 2:1, 11)

    What were “the heavens” to which “Elijah went ascending in the windstorm”? These were neither the distant parts of the physical universe nor the spiritual place where God and his angelic sons dwell. (Deuteronomy 4:19; Psalm 11:4; Matthew 6:9; 18:10) “The heavens” to which Elijah ascended were the atmospheric heavens, where birds fly and wind blows. (Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26) Racing through earth’s atmosphere, the fiery chariot evidently transferred Elijah to another location, where he continued living for a time. Years later, in fact, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah.(2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15)

  9. #7
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    No, I dont think they did either. They went to some holding place, which compared to this earthly life, is without strife, a place of peace, still holding on to thier memories, still able to communicate with the Lord in prayer, for the Lord IS everywhere.

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    Jesus revelation of Abraham's Bosom was knew to man but not to God, and I have no problem with the fact that the Father prepared a holding place for those who lived by faith awaiting the imputed righteousness of Christ to make a way into actual heaven.
    Psa 62:5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.

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    Originally Posted by Jaareshiah View Post

    The apostle Paul wrote of Enoch, that "by faith E´noch was transferred (Greek metetethe, meaning "to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport", Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, G3346, not "translated" [Greek diermeneue, G1329] as in the King James Bible)
    Just because you are not educated enough in English doesn't give you the right to undermine God's word or the English language. To correct your error, (ironically) the word is correctly translated as "translated." You do not need to know Greek to understand the Bible, like you are indirectly proclaiming. Just learn more about the English language. The King James translators were MORE than qualified and already understand the differences between the Greek words.

    The word translation is a mathematical word that revolves around physics. The true definition of Translation is from the original Latin word "Translatus" which means "Carried over." Or a more descriptive mathematical definition within the context of moving polygons:

    "To translate a figure is to simply slide it somewhere else. But in the move, you may not change the figure in any other way. You cannot rotate it, resize it, or flip it over. You may only slide it side to side, up and down."

    Just like when we "Translate" a word, we do not change the content. We "move" it from one language to another. In the same way, Elijah and Enoch were "translated" from one location to another by God's whirlwind moving them side to side, up and down. There you have it, I explained that the Bible is fine the way it is without having to say a single Greek word.

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    Originally Posted by Aenon View Post
    Just because you are not educated enough in English doesn't give you the right to undermine God's word or the English language. To correct your error, (ironically) the word is correctly translated as "translated." You do not need to know Greek to understand the Bible, like you are indirectly proclaiming. Just learn more about the English language. The King James translators were MORE than qualified and already understand the differences between the Greek words.

    The word translation is a mathematical word that revolves around physics. The true definition of Translation is from the original Latin word "Translatus" which means "Carried over." Or a more descriptive mathematical definition within the context of moving polygons:

    "To translate a figure is to simply slide it somewhere else. But in the move, you may not change the figure in any other way. You cannot rotate it, resize it, or flip it over. You may only slide it side to side, up and down."

    Just like when we "Translate" a word, we do not change the content. We "move" it from one language to another. In the same way, Elijah and Enoch were "translated" from one location to another by God's whirlwind moving them side to side, up and down. There you have it, I explained that the Bible is fine the way it is without having to say a single Greek word.
    Accuracy of word meanings is essential to understanding the Bible, to grasping what it really says, rather than what individuals feels it says. For example, the King James Bible reads at 1 Corinthians 10:24: "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

    From how the King James Bible has 1 Corinthians 10:24 rendered, it seemingly is saying that a Christian should "seek....another's wealth", to seek an advantage to take away another's wealth. But, is this really accurate in rendering what the apostle Paul wrote ? Should a Christian "seek...another's wealth" ? What accurately did Paul say ? The New World Translation reads: "Let each one keep seeking, not his own [advantage], but that of the other person."(1 Cor 10:24) Hence, a Christian should "keep seeking, not his own advantage", but what is advantageous for others, what really benefits them.

    Thus, concerning Enoch, the apostle Paul did not say that he was "translated", that is the Greek word diermeneue (G1329, and of another Greek word methermenuomenon, meaning "which means when translated" at Matthew 1:23 and Mark 5:41), but rather used the Greek word metetethe (G3346).

    Of the Greek word metetethe, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says "to transfer....without mention of the place....Heb. xi 5 (Heb 11:5 [Gen v. 24]), to change , (more commonly) to transfer one's self " (pg 406)

    Thus, Enoch was "transferred so as not to see death", God transferring him from life to death, perhaps in a prophetic trance, with Enoch not experiencing the pangs of death as most do. It is like putting a dog to sleep from which it never wakes up. This showed mercy on God's part concerning Enoch, who ' walked with God ' (Gen 5:22), rather than let him be possibly be violently abused at the hands of wicked ones such as the Nephilim.(Gen 6:4)

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