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  1. #1
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    Old Man Crucified; But Not Dead

    When one chooses to follow the Father’s drawing to Christ (John 6:44) and receives Him (John 1:12; Rev 3:20), what happens to the “old man” or, sin nature? Scripture declares, “That our old man is crucified with Him” (Rom 6:6) and we ourselves are also crucified (Gal 2:20). How the believer understands this issue will determine the understanding of Scriptural doctrine which relates to the condition of one born-again.

    The term “crucified” used in the physical sense is identical to its use in the spiritual sense in that its purpose is to portray the helplessness of one concerning the inability to operate as before. The idea that one being physically crucified, which can last for days, is analogous to the ongoing existence of the sinful nature (old man) within the believer. It being crucified (still on the Cross) is not dead, just powerless to control as before. The difference between us being crucified and our sinful nature being crucified is that the sinful nature is still on the Cross, but we left the Cross with Him.

    The Christian is, “dead to sin”, or in other words—dead to sin’s control (Rom 6:2, 11), but nowhere is it said that the indwelling (Rom 7:17, 20) sin nature is dead to the saint; but rather it continues to impose on the believer its influence, but to no authoritative avail:

    “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof”; “For sin shall not have dominion over you” (Rom 6:12, 14); “For the flesh (sinful nature or old man) lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” (Gal 5:17).
    Last edited by NetChaplain; 02-28-13 at 04:28 PM.
    The Christian life is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetChaplain View Post
    When one chooses to follow the Father’s drawing to Christ (John 6:44) and receives Him (John 1:12; Rev 3:20), what happens to the “old man” or, sin nature? Scripture declares, “That our old man is crucified with Him” (Rom 6:6) and we ourselves are also crucified (Gal 2:20). How the believer understands this issue will determine the understanding of Scriptural doctrine which relates to the condition of one born-again.

    The term “crucified” used in the physical sense is identical to its use in the spiritual sense in that its purpose is to portray the helplessness of one concerning the inability to operate as before. The idea that one being physically crucified, which can last for days, is analogous to the ongoing existence of the sinful nature (old man) within the believer. It being crucified (still on the Cross) is not dead, just powerless to control as before. The difference between us being crucified and our sinful nature being crucified is that the sinful nature is still on the Cross, but we left the Cross with Him.

    The Christian is, “dead to sin”, or in other words—dead to sin’s control (Rom 6:2, 11), but nowhere is it said that the indwelling (Rom 7:17, 20) sin nature is dead to the saint; but rather it continues to impose on the believer its influence, but to no authoritative avail:

    “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof”; “For sin shall not have dominion over you” (Rom 6:12, 14); “For the flesh (sinful nature or old man) lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” (Gal 5:17).
    Hi NetChaplain,

    This physical life we go through is similar to the wilderness experience the Jews faced after leaving Egypt.
    So we're not in the promised land yet. Hence the "flesh" (called "sinful nature" in NIV Bible) is still in the background hoping to retake control over us. (By the way, in referring to "flesh", "sinful nature", it's not speaking about bad behavior/lifestyle.)

    So who rules in a Christian's life? Is it the flesh or the Spirit?
    Scripture shows us that Christians are not in the flesh.
    Rom 7:5
    For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto
    death.

    Rom 8:9
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,


    Those who believe in Jesus are not in the flesh. In believing in Jesus they are walking in the Spirit instead.

    You cannot serve 2 masters. It's either the flesh or the Spirit.

    NetChaplain, you said that the flesh "continues to impose on the believer its influence".
    That's true, and we see examples in scripture of it having some successes.
    Gal 3:3
    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    However, for the Christian/believer, the old man is dead (by faith).
    Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
    And now in Christ we're:
    Righteous, Rom 4:5
    Holy, Rom 11:16
    Sanctified, Heb 10:10
    Perfected, Heb 10:14
    Cannot sin, 1John 3:9

    All this we have (by faith) when we continue to believe in Jesus. We are made partakers of Christ by believing in him.
    Heb 3:14
    For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence (believing in Jesus) stedfast unto the end;
    Last edited by Barny; 03-01-13 at 04:34 AM.

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    I personally disagree with the OP and believe that crucifixion equals death. The purpose of crucifixion is not to have us hanging on the cross.. but to kill us. Its purpose is to kill the self, the "I, me, my" , Paul writes: Col 3:3 "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." God is not interested in only deadening the sin nature and keeping your old man alive, your self, alive.. crucifixion kills the old man, and with it the sin nature is killed too.. Because all sin comes from self. When we are angry that someone cuts us off in traffic.. that is anger coming from self-righteousness..when we impatient ..that is our self wanting our own way in our own time.. when we react with offense to someone's remark, comment, or anything.. that reaction is from self-vindication.

    Before the fall, Adam and Eve had no "self", they only saw God and each other.. they were led by their spirit.. that is why they were not ashamed that they were naked.. but when they sinned.. their spirit died and their soul (mind , emotions, will) became the leading part of their being.. and with this came the "self"... they gained self-awareness.. self-consciouscnesss..saw they were naked.. saw they were sinners.. and they hid from God. If our self is truly dead.. we will only see God and others, not live for self.. we will not see our nakedness and will not be ashamed that we must 'hide' from God.

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    Our Old man is our old spirit and it DEAD !Gone forever more! The new man is our new Spirit !
    but in our flesh mind we still have those old thoughts! Also our flesh has a sin nature ! It only dies because of sin ! Our new spirit cannot sin and never dies!

    Rom_7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;


    Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
    Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


    Rom_7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.



    Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    Rom_7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

    1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


    Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Gal_5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


    Rom_7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    Rom_7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    We must be able to separte our thinking about our weak flesh and our new creature [Our spirit ]

  6. #5
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    Hi Barny - I want you to know ahead of time that much of what you've replied with is at variance with some of my beliefs (which is common among believers), so let it be known that my reason for sharing our differences will never be contentious or to convince, but to attempt the "word of truth," which I'm also assuming is the same for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barny View Post
    So we're not in the promised land yet
    Not physically yet, but we are spiritually; which means possessing eternal life now is as real as it will be at the first resurrection, because the believer will not be any more saved in eternity than he is now. Without this present-knowing of assurance, it is as the unsaved, unknowingly wondering about the next life; even though the believer may not understand or accept he can know, in this life, he has eternal security, he will yet inherit it--being a believer (Christian).

    "Shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24): "We know that we have passed from death unto life . . . ." (1 John 3:14): "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

    Quote Originally Posted by Barny View Post
    the "flesh" (called "sinful nature" in NIV Bible) is still in the background hoping to retake control over us
    We're close on this one. I see it that the "old man" (sinful-Adamic-nature) continues to influence us but not in a "retake-control" attempt, because for the believer, "Sin shall not have dominion over you . . . ." (Rom 6:14). I see the sinful nature being used by God to strengthen our faith--through the ongoing testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barny View Post
    By the way, in referring to "flesh", "sinful nature", it's not speaking about bad behavior/lifestyle.)
    I'm not certain concerning your meaning here, but I believe Scripture is clear that our sin nature is incorrigible: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom 8:7); "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing . . . ." (Rom 7:18).

    I have a couple more replies to your post but have to begin another post because I cannot get the quote council to activate beyond this point.
    The Christian life is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetChaplain View Post
    Not physically yet, but we are spiritually;
    I believe this also.

    Quote Originally Posted by NetChaplain View Post
    We're close on this one. I see it that the "old man" (sinful-Adamic-nature) continues to influence us but not in a "retake-control" attempt, because for the believer, "Sin shall not have dominion over you . . . ." (Rom 6:14). I see the sinful nature being used by God to strengthen our faith--through the ongoing testing.
    The term "sinful nature" is taken from the NIV Bible.
    The KJV calls this the "flesh"

    But scripture says Christians are not in the "flesh" ("sinful nature"), Rom 8:9, Rom 7:5
    We're not in the flesh because we believe in Jesus.

    But, I agree that in this wilderness experience we go through in this life our faith is tested and strengthened. And those who endure to the end, believing in Jesus, shall enter in to His rest.


    Quote Originally Posted by NetChaplain View Post
    I'm not certain concerning your meaning here, but I believe Scripture is clear that our sin nature is incorrigible: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom 8:7); "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing . . . ." (Rom 7:18).
    Unfortunately the term "sinful nature" is often used incorrectly as if it applies to Christians in explaining any wrongful behavior/lifestyle.

    Instead we see in scripture that Christians are not in the "flesh" ("sinful nature"). What this term "flesh" or "sinful nature" refers to is rebellion against God where the Spirit does not rule and instead the flesh does. And the flesh seeks to establish it's own righteousness by works as it will not submit to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:3. The flesh only seeks rebellion against God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barny View Post
    So who rules in a Christian's life? Is it the flesh or the Spirit?
    This is probably one of the most applicable questions concerning the self-life I've encountered so far (on ten sites).

    Being aware of the ongoing presence of our Adamic nature isn't as significant as the issue concerning its activities, which are continually restrained by the Spirit's application of the Cross to it. We already know that the "old man" cannot "rule" in our mortal body" (Rom 6:12, 14), which leaves the Spirit to rule the believer: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish" (Gal 5:17). Also, the believer has the assurance that, "It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

    Quote Originally Posted by Barny View Post
    Scripture shows us that Christians are not in the flesh.
    This does not design the intention that the sinful nature is not in us, but rather that the believer's life is no longer "in" the control of it, which is a primary ongoing theme in the Romans epistle. The crux of the matter concerning our Adamic nature is that nowhere does Scripture proclaim it is dead or has died, just still under crucifixion ("is crucified"; Rom 6:6) and thus, restrained. It's the saint, not the sinful nature, who has died (Col 3:3) which renders us dead to sin's control; and we "are risen" with Him (Col 2:12) in our spirit; and for certain, eventually in our bodies (Rom 8:23).
    The Christian life is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barny View Post
    But, I agree that in this wilderness experience we go through in this life our faith is tested and strengthened. And those who endure to the end, believing in Jesus, shall enter in to His rest.
    This reminds me of this passage (2 Tim. 2:11-13)

    11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
    If we died with him,
    we will also live with him;
    12 if we endure,we will also reign with him.
    If we disown him,
    he will also disown us;
    13 if we are faithless,
    he remains faithful,
    for he cannot disown himself.



    If we die to 'self' and choose Him as the Master, we will have the potential to live (and rest) with Him through growing in Spiritual maturity.
    Buf if we also endure, we will also reign with Him. That is the matter of rewards.

    Would like to see what you (plural) think about this.

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    Hi James - I like that you get right at the heart of the issue and I hope you don't mind a brief reply, because much of your reply is addressed elsewhere in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by james1523 View Post
    I personally disagree with the OP and believe that crucifixion equals death. The purpose of crucifixion is not to have us hanging on the cross.. but to kill us. Its purpose is to kill the self, the "I, me, my"
    To me, if the sinful nature were eradicated, instead of restrained, the believer would be sinless, which is a significant conflict with the whole of the New Testament concerning our sin nature.

    I don't not know if the eradication concept is what you're referring to but I like advocating the fact that if the Christian was void of the sin nature, the Spirit wouldn't be at constant odds with it: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal 5:17). Plus I believe 1 John 1:8 is in reference to everyone at any given time; "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
    The Christian life is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by will View Post
    If we die to 'self' and choose Him as the Master, we will have the potential to live (and rest) with Him through growing in Spiritual maturity.
    Buf if we also endure, we will also reign with Him. That is the matter of rewards.
    Ah man, you finished before you got to the best part

    2 Tim 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
    2 Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
    2 Tim 2:16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
    2 Tim 2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
    2 Tim 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
    2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
    2 Tim 2:20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
    2 Tim 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
    2 Tim 2:22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
    2 Tim 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
    *- BAC -*

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