Originally Posted by David777

The Gospel of Matthew was written to a Jewish audience.

We are spiritual in Christ, we have the righteousness of Christ.

Where Christ is there is no law and never will be.

Let's go with this thought for bit.
I have a series of questions.

1. Have you David ever sinned in your life?

2. If the answer is "yes", how did you know it was sin?

there are more questions.. depending on the answers to these.

Originally Posted by B-A-C

To carry this thought a little further....

If we were never under the law, why would we need Jesus?
Saying we aren't under any law nullifies the need for Jesus.
.....

God's standards and Holiness are so far above ours...

This is why we need Jesus.

Hi B-A-C,

I agree, God's standards are higher than ours and that is why we need Jesus.

Your first point about those who were never under the law, is covered in Rom 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"

The Jews according to the flesh had the law of righteousness and the Gentiles were not under this law. Both Jews and Gentiles were unrighteous.
"But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone." Rom 9:31-32

The Gentiles were unrighteous (which is sin, 1John 5:17) and therefore perished, just like Israel which, in spite of having the law of righteousness, failed to attain to the law of righteousness.
Both Jews and Gentiles needed a savior.

Gal 2:18 warns that if you go under the law you make yourself a transgressor. To go back under the law you frustrate the grace of God, Gal 2:21.

Originally Posted by DutchChristian

Barny, it seems to me you do not have the right gospel, but are spreading another gospel; a gospel in which sin is ok because you simply can never sin anymore as a christian. And that God does not see your sins anymore. And that repentance is a once only in a lifetime action and then never again? Which implies that all your future sins are already forgiven? and that now there is no more sin for Christians? That a christian can never ever sin again? Never fall back in unbelief?

That is contrary to the real gospel.

Hi DutchChristian,

We differ in our definitions of sin, hence our different understandings.
Please read my posts again to see that it is well supported by scripture.
Also, I did not say Christians can never fall back into unbelief. Read my post again and see scripture references I referred to, warning Christians about falling away.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Old Covenant believers (servants) had the Law to convict them of sin.
New Covenant believers(sons) have the Holy Spirit directing their conscience (Rom 9:1) to convict them of sin.
God did not violate the Law but Christ fulfilled the Law we could not.


Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Originally Posted by Barny

Hi B-A-C,

I agree, God's standards are higher than ours and that is why we need Jesus.

Your first point about those who were never under the law, is covered in Rom 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"

The Jews according to the flesh had the law of righteousness and the Gentiles were not under this law. Both Jews and Gentiles were unrighteous.
"But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone." Rom 9:31-32

The Gentiles were unrighteous (which is sin, 1John 5:17) and therefore perished, just like Israel which, in spite of having the law of righteousness, failed to attain to the law of righteousness.
Both Jews and Gentiles needed a savior.

Gal 2:18 warns that if you go under the law you make yourself a transgressor. To go back under the law you frustrate the grace of God, Gal 2:21.

After we are saved, this is all true.. but what about before we are saved? What are we saved from?

Originally Posted by B-A-C

Let's go with this thought for bit.
I have a series of questions.

1. Have you David ever sinned in your life?

2. If the answer is "yes", how did you know it was sin?

there are more questions.. depending on the answers to these.

I never knew the law of Moses, I did not know what the Sabbath was.
I never even knew God had a name, I did not even know of God.

I had sinned grossly BAC, my own conscious tormented me.

My main areas of sin were in fact outside of the 10 words.

After I read the Gospel the Holy Spirit started to convict more deeply
than my own conscious did.

It was sin in the sense that it was wickedness more so than lawlessness. The Greek word for lawlessness also means wickedness.
Thus, in my case it was not failure in respect of the law but evil beyond the limits of the law.

Originally Posted by David777

I never knew the law of Moses, I did not know what the Sabbath was.
I never even knew God had a name, I did not even know of God.

I had sinned grossly BAC, my own conscious tormented me.

My main areas of sin were in fact outside of the 10 words.

After I read the Gospel the Holy Spirit started to convict more deeply
than my own conscious did.

It was sin in the sense that it was wickedness more so than lawlessness. The Greek word for lawlessness also means wickedness.
Thus, in my case it was not failure in respect of the law but evil beyond the limits of the law.

In others words, we are back to...
You determine what sin is.. God doesn't.
The Bible doesn't tell us what sin is. We have to guess.

Thanks for answering.

Originally Posted by B-A-C

In others words, we are back to...
You determine what sin is.. God doesn't.
The Bible doesn't tell us what sin is. We have to guess.

Thanks for answering.

I love to answer questions BAC.

I am enthralled by these different theologies.

The Holy Spirit does the work of conviction of sin BAC.

Our own conscience also convicts us of sin.

Sin is wickedness, I never had the law BAC.

Sin is disobedience to God, disobedience
to the inner programming we all have.

The good that I wish I could do is
not what I do, rather what I do not
want to do. Who will set me free from
this body of death?

My thought life was my undoing BAC,
thoughts are beyond our full control.
Our thoughts condemn us as Paul
states in Romans.

Originally Posted by Barny

Your first point about those who were never under the law, is covered in Rom 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"

Here is the "God's Word" Translation.
Rom 2:10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for every person who does what is good, for Jews first and Greeks as well.
Rom 2:11 God does not play favorites.
Rom 2:12 Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.
Rom 2:14 For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God.
Rom 2:15 They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another.

You should have underlined the "will also perish without the law" part.
Even without the Jewish law, they will be judged by them. But they DID have the law, even though Moses didn't bring it to them from a mountain top.

Here is the Amplified version.
Rom 2:11 For God shows no partiality [undue favor or unfairness; with Him one man is not different from another]. [Deut. 10:17; II Chron. 19:7.]
Rom 2:12 All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.
Rom 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the [divine] Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their [moral] decisions (their arguments of reason, their condemning or approving thoughts) will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse [them]

The Gentiles had the law, not on stone tablets, but on their hearts.

Here is the NLT version.
Rom 2:10 But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.
Rom 2:12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know His law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
Rom 2:15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

The Gentiles didn't have laws written on tablets or stone, but they knew right from wrong. They had God's laws on their hearts.
I might as well throw in King James for good measure...

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Originally Posted by Barny

"But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone." Rom 9:31-32

The Gentiles were unrighteous (which is sin, 1John 5:17) and therefore perished, just like Israel which, in spite of having the law of righteousness, failed to attain to the law of righteousness.
Both Jews and Gentiles needed a savior.

Gal 2:18 warns that if you go under the law you make yourself a transgressor. To go back under the law you frustrate the grace of God, Gal 2:21.

No argument with any of this, I don't want to go BACK to the law. My point was, as Gentiles there was a 'law' in the first place. (Otherwise I wouldn't be able to go BACK to it) once we are saved, it doesn't apply in the same way anymore.

Originally Posted by David777

Our thoughts condemn us as Paul
states in Romans.

You are correct, Paul does state that our thoughts and conscious' condemn us. Why did he say that?

Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.
Rom 2:12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.
Rom 2:14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know His law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
Rom 2:15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

Because they knew God's laws in their hearts.
There are still millions of people in the world today who have never never heard of Jesus, or the Bible, or even the Old Testament Torah.
Yet despite this, they know certain things are wrong. Virtually all cultures have the same laws about murder, adultery, stealing, lying, etc...
It might be argued that not EVERY culture has EVERY law; perhaps not, but most cultures have most of the laws pretty close to the 10 commandments.

Even as Christians, we are still under "a" law.

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Fulfilling the requirements of the law, is entirely different from doing away with the law entirely.

Matt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Luke 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.