Part 1.

When will the rapture happen? Will we know? Some people take these verses and say "no one knows".

Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Matt 24:43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

Matt 25:13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

1Thess 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

But maybe there will be some signs that give us some warning? Matt 24 has more about the rapture than any other book in the Bible, we get almost 51 verses about it.

Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Matt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
Matt 24:5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
Matt 24:6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
Matt 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
Matt 24:8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Matt 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Matt 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Matt 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matt 24:12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Matt 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Well, that isn't real specific but we have a few clues.
Wars, famines, earthquakes, false prophets and false Christs. I think it's safe to say we have these things in the world today, but notice it says this is merely the beginning of the "birth pains".

Matt 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

What is the abomination desolation? Notice it says to look in the book of Daniel for a clue. So if we look there, what do we find?

Dan 11:20 "Then in his place one will arise who will send an oppressor through the Jewel of his kingdom; yet within a few days he will be shattered, though not in anger nor in battle.
Dan 11:21 "In his place a despicable person will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue.
Dan 11:22 "The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant.
Dan 11:23 "After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception, and he will go up and gain power with a small force of people.
Dan 11:24 "In a time of tranquility he will enter the richest parts of the realm, and he will accomplish what his fathers never did, nor his ancestors; he will distribute plunder, booty and possessions among them, and he will devise his schemes against strongholds, but only for a time.

This sounds a lot like Revelation, where the beast will make friends with the Roman church and the 10 kingdoms, and then betray them.

Dan 11:25 "He will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South with a large army; so the king of the South will mobilize an extremely large and mighty army for war; but he will not stand, for schemes will be devised against him.
Dan 11:26 "Those who eat his choice food will destroy him, and his army will overflow, but many will fall down slain.
Dan 11:27 "As for both kings, their hearts will be intent on evil, and they will speak lies to each other at the same table; but it will
not succeed, for the end is still to come at the appointed time.
Dan 11:28 "Then he will return to his land with much plunder; but his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action
and then return to his own land.
Dan 11:29 "At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before.
Dan 11:30 "For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy
covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.
Dan 11:32 "By smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action.
Dan 11:33 "Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for many days.
Dan 11:34 "Now when they fall they will be granted a little help, and many will join with them in hypocrisy.

Antiochus Epiphanes was a ruler/warlord that conquered Jerusalem and desecrated it by sacrificing a swine on the altar. (This was not Antiochus III or IV) Wikipedia says it was Antiochus III but this is incorrect, the book of Daniel starts off talking about the beseigning of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar. This was around 600 BC, not 165 BC. Wikipedia also says Daniel was written a maccabean author about 165 BC also. Jesus didn't include the Macabees in his Canon, and indeed if it wasn't written by a prophet (Daniel) it wouldn't meet the requirements of canonization anyway, also the Bible says there was 400 years of silence between the OT and the NT (Acts 7:6 for example) so there is could be no way he spoke to Israel during this time. Interestingly enough, a wikipedia lookup on Nebuchadnezzar shows the correct dates. Wikipedia often disagrees with itself.


So will this happen before the rapture? Will we know who the beast is before the rapture?

2Thess 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thess 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thess 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Some say, oh no problem, we will have warning. But how much? He could be revealed 5 minutes before the rapture. Also, he could be revealed 20 years before the rapture and people will start saying things like "it's been 20 years and it hasn't happened, so it never will".

2Thess 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Thess 2:5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
2Thess 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2Thess 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Thess 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2Thess 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be
saved.
2Thess 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Thess 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

This sure sounds a lot like the Beast of Revelation.

.... part 2 next ....

Ok, so are there any other warnings?

Luke 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
Luke 17:22 And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.
Luke 17:23 "They will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them.
Luke 17:24 "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.
Luke 17:25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Luke 17:26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luke 17:27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 17:31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Luke 17:32 "Remember Lot's wife. (Gen 19:17; Gen 19:26)
Luke 17:33 "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luke 17:34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:36 ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
Luke 17:37 And answering they *said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

So then, why do the other verses in the first post say "No one knows the hour".
I believe it won't be a known time (like some say about the Mayan calendar for example) It won't be some televangelist saying it WILL be on this date!! It won't be someone on a street corner with a sign saying the world will end next week. But I believe there will be things to watch for.

1Thess 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Notice it says those who are dead Christians will rise up first, before the Christians who are alive.

1Thess 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
1Thess 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
1Thess 5:3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
1Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
1Thess 5:5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
1Thess 5:6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
1Thess 5:7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
1Thess 5:8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

... part 3 is coming ...

Originally Posted by B-A-C

Some say, oh no problem, we will have warning. But how much? He could be revealed 5 minutes before the rapture. Also, he could be revealed 20 years before the rapture and people will start saying things like "it's been 20 years and it hasn't happened, so it never will".

this is incorrect interpreation. the only reason Paul wrote about son of perdition was to give a Sign. so its not 5 minutes before rapture. nor its 20 years before it. Because the purpose of Pauls writing was to give them peace in mind.

what your basically saying is that it was no use for Paul to write his letter.
but the use and purpose of it was back then and still is to tell us the day of the Lord is not at hand so you can be at peace about it. The sign was given and it remains .

Jesus also talked lot about signs before His coming.

the purpose of all this as well is to let us know when the time is near. otherwise there would be no point saying what He did.

also do remember that thief in the night does not come to us unawares because we are all children of light according to Paul.

1 Thessalonians 5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Matthew 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

it seems that somehow magically because we dont know the return hour of the Lord the moment is supposed to be completely unknown.

but truth is we are unware of the hour now. and no one knows it. we were however given instructions in the bible as well many prophecies of the things that must come to pass first.

so when this uknown date draws near we should very much realize this. as Jesus and paul both wanted us to know this and Paul was certain the day would not overtake us like a thief.

Originally Posted by jari

it seems that somehow magically because we dont know the return hour of the Lord the moment is supposed to be completely unknown.

but truth is we are unware of the hour now. and no one knows it. we were however given instructions in the bible as well many prophecies of the things that must come to pass first.

so when this uknown date draws near we should very much realize this. as Jesus and paul both wanted us to know this and Paul was certain the day would not overtake us like a thief.

Actually I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm saying is Christians who "are watching" and know what to look for will be ready.

The rest of the world won't be. Thats the only distinction I am making, indeed in the world believed the rapture was really going to happen, wouldn't that make them "believers"?

Many times in the Bible when it is talking about "the world", it doesn't mean the whole world, but rather just the non-believers.
see John 8:23; John 14:17; John 15:19; John 17:14-16; Rom 12:2 and 1Cor 1:21, etc...

I never got the impression that Mathew 24 was referring to an end time event.Keep in mind the generation he was speaking to has passed away.

Mathew 24:
45 "Who then is _v the faithful and _w wise servant, ₃ whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? ⁴⁶ _x Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. ⁴⁷ Truly, I say to you, _y he will set him over all his possessions. ⁴⁸ But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master _z is delayed,' ⁴⁹ and begins to beat his fellow servants ₄ and eats and drinks with _a drunkards, ⁵⁰ the master of that servant will come _b on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know ⁵¹ and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place _c there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This seems more of a warning to teachers of the church and the implication is that it would apply on an individual basis.

While I lean towards post trib, I am a pan-tribber. I will wait to see how it all pans out.

Seriously though, if you spend your time seeking God in prayer, studying His Word, doing His will and loving others it does not matter one bit when He comes back, you will be ready.

Originally Posted by Boanerges

While I lean towards post trib, I am a pan-tribber. I will wait to see how it all pans out.

Seriously though, if you spend your time seeking God in prayer, studying His Word, doing His will and loving others it does not matter one bit when He comes back, you will be ready.

I totally agree, I lean towards pre-trib, but I'm not as concerned about when. I am just watching and hoping to be ready.

Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts

I never got the impression that Mathew 24 was referring to an end time event.Keep in mind the generation he was speaking to has passed away.

Mathew 24:
45 "Who then is _v the faithful and _w wise servant, ₃ whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? ⁴⁶ _x Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. ⁴⁷ Truly, I say to you, _y he will set him over all his possessions. ⁴⁸ But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master _z is delayed,' ⁴⁹ and begins to beat his fellow servants ₄ and eats and drinks with _a drunkards, ⁵⁰ the master of that servant will come _b on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know ⁵¹ and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place _c there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This seems more of a warning to teachers of the church and the implication is that it would apply on an individual basis.

Hmmm....
Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

sounds more the rapture to me.

Originally Posted by B-A-C

Actually I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm saying is Christians who "are watching" and know what to look for will be ready.

The rest of the world won't be. Thats the only distinction I am making, indeed in the world believed the rapture was really going to happen, wouldn't that make them "believers"?

Many times in the Bible when it is talking about "the world", it doesn't mean the whole world, but rather just the non-believers.
see ; ; ; ; and ; etc...

Paul said we are all children of light.
how would you define "ready"?