I found this excellent article. I thought I would share it.

You may want to read it from the url.

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING
by Thomas Ice


Over the years I have had hundreds of discussions with many people about the timing
of the rapture. Of course, I strongly believe that the New Testament indicates that the
Church will be raptured before the tribulation. One of the key reasons I think this is because
I believe the Bible teaches that the rapture is a distinct event from Christ's second coming
to the earth. In any consideration of the truthfulness of pretribulationism this issue is of crucial
importance.
Dr. John Feinberg notes that distinguishing between the rapture and second coming is
important in establishing pretribulationism against the non-pre-trib claim that the Bible does
not teach such a view.
. . . the pretribulationist must show that there is enough dissimilarity between clear
rapture and clear second advent passages as to warrant the claim that the two kinds
of passages could be speaking about two events which could occur at different
times. The pretribulationist does not have to prove at this point . . . that the two
events must occur at different times, but only that the exegetical data from rapture
and second advent passages do not make it impossible for the events to occur at
different times. If he can do that, the pretribulationist has shown that his view is not
impossible. And, he has answered the posttribulationist’s strongest line of
evidence.1
A key factor in understanding the New Testament’s teaching of the pretribulational
rapture revolves around the fact that two future comings of Christ are presented. The first
coming is the catching up into the clouds of the church before the seven-year tribulation and
the second coming occurs at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns to the earth to
begin His 1,000 year kingdom. Anyone desirous of insight into the biblical teaching of the
rapture and second advent must study and decide whether Scripture speaks of one or two
future events. Yet, many non-pretribulationists never deal with this issue.
FRAMING THE ISSUE
Posttribulationists usually contend that if the rapture and the second coming are two
distinct events, separated by about seven years, then there ought to be at least one
passage in Scripture which clearly teaches this. However, the Bible does not always teach
God’s truth in accordance with our preconceived notions or in such a way that answers
directly all of our questions. For example, a Unitarian could design a similar kind of question
regarding the Trinity. “Where is at least one passage in Scripture which clearly says that the
Persons of the Godhead are distinct?” We who believe the Trinity reply that the Bible
teaches the Trinity but in a different way.
Many important biblical doctrines are not given to us directly from a single verse, we
often need to harmonize passages into systematic conclusions. Some truths are directly
stated in the Bible, such as the deity of Christ (John 1:1, Titus 2:13). But doctrines like the
Trinity and the incarnate nature of Christ are the product of biblical harmonization. Taking into
account all biblical texts, orthodox theologians, over time, recognized that God is a Trinity
and that Christ is the God-Man. Similarly, a systematic consideration of all biblical passages
reveals that Scripture teaches two future comings. I am not saying that the Bible does not
teach a pre-trib rapture, as some have misconstrued similar comments in the past. The
1John S. Feinberg, "Arguing for the Rapture: Who Must Prove What and How" in Thomas Ice
and Timothy Demy, editors When The Trumpet Sounds (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House
Publishers, 1995), p. 194.
Pre-Trib Research Center - 2
New Testament does teach pretribulationism, even though it may not be presented in a
way that is not as clear to some as they might like.
Posttribulationists often contend that the pre-trib position is built merely built upon an
assumption that certain verses ‘make sense’ if and only if the pre-trib model of the rapture is
assumed to be correct. However, they often fail to make it clear to their readers that they
are just as dependent upon assumptions as they say pre-tribers are. Their error stems
from failure to observe actual biblical distinctions.
For example, Christ’s overall ministry has two phases which revolve around His two
comings. Phase one took place at Christ’s first coming when He came in humiliation to
suffer. Phase two will begin at Christ’s second coming when He will reign on earth in power
and glory. Failure to distinguish these two phases was a key factor in Israel’s rejection of
Jesus as Messiah at His first coming. In the same way, failure to see clear distinctions
between the rapture and second advent lead many to a misinterpretation of God’s future
plan.
THE NATURE OF THE RAPTURE
The rapture is most clearly presented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. In verse 17 the
English phrase “caught up” translates the Greek word “harpázô,” which means “to seize
upon with force” or “to snatch up.” Latin translators of the Bible used the word “rapere,” the
root of the English term “rapture.” At the rapture living believers will be “caught up” in the
air, translated into the clouds, in a moment of time.
The rapture is characterized in the Bible as a “translation coming” (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1
Thes. 4:15-17) in which Christ comes for His church. The second advent is Christ returning
with His saints, descending from heaven to establish His earthly kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5;
Mat. 24:27-31). Ed Hindson observes:
The rapture (or “translation”) of the church is often paralleled to the “raptures” of Enoch
(Genesis 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2: 12). In each case, the individual disappeared or
was caught up into-heaven. At His ascension, our Lord Himself was “taken up” into
heaven (Acts 1:9). The biblical description of the rapture involves both the
resurrection of deceased believers and the translation of living believers into the air to
meet the Lord (1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:51 52).2
Differences between the two events are harmonized naturally by the pre-trib position,
while other views are not able to account naturally from the biblical text for such distinctions.
The following graphic lists a compilation of rapture passages set opposite to many that
refer to the second coming.
2Edward E. Hindson, "The Rapture and the Return: Two Aspects of Christ's Coming" in Thomas
Ice and Timothy Demy, editors When The Trumpet Sounds (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House
Publishers, 1995), p. 157-58.
Pre-Trib Research Center - 3
RAPTURE & SECOND COMMIINNG PPASSAAGGEESS
Rapture Passages 2nd Coming Passages
John 14:1-3
1 Thess 4:13-18
1 Cor 15:51-53
Col 3:4
Heb 9:28
1 John 2:28-3:2
James 5:7-9
1 Thess 1:10
1 Thess 2:19
1 Thess 3:13
1 Thess 5:23
Phil 3:20-21
Titus 2:13
1 Cor 1:7-8
1 Peter 1:7, 13
Jude 21
Daniel 2:44-45
Daniel 7:9-14
Daniel 12:1-3
Zech 14:1-15
Matt 13:41
Matt 24:15-31
Matt 26:64
Mark 13:14-27
Mark 14:62
Luke 21:25-28
Acts 1:9-11
Acts 3:19-21
2 Thess 1:6-10
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 14-15
Rev 1:7
Rev 19:11-20:6
Rev 22:7, 12, 20
2 Thess 2:1
1 Tim 6:14
Rev 3:10
2 Tim 4:1
2 Thess 2:8
Rom 8:19
1 Cor 16:22
1 Thess 5:9 Rev 2:25
Zech 12:10
Phil 4:5
2 Tim 4:8
1 Peter 5:4
1 Peter 4:12-13
2 Thess 2:3 (?)
Second
Rapture Advent
Seven-Year
Tribulation Period
"Seventieth Week"
of Daniel
Based upon the references above, we can see a vast difference between the character
of passages referring to the rapture when compared to those of the second coming as
summarized in the following differences:
RAPTURE AND SECOND COMING CONTRASTS
Rapture/Translation 2nd Coming/Estab. Kingdom
1 Translation of all believers 1 No translation at all
2 Translated saints go to heaven 2 Translated saints return to earth
3 Earth not judged 3 Earth judged & righteousness established
4 Imminent, any-moment, signless 4 Follows definite predicted signs including
tribulation
5 Not in the Old Testament 5 Predicted often in Old Testament
6 Believers only 6 Affects all men
7 Before the day of wrath 7 Concluding the day of wrath
8 No reference to Satan 8 Satan bound
9 Christ comes for His own 9 Christ comes with His own
10 He comes in the air 10 He comes to the earth
11 He claims His bride 11 He comes with His bride
12 Only His own see Him 12 Every eye shall see Him
13 Tribulation begins 13 Millennial Kingdom begins
John Walvoord concludes that these "contrasts should make it evident that the translation
of the church is an event quite different in character and time from the return of the Lord to
establish His kingdom, and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the
tribulation."3
ADDITIONAL DIFFERENCES
3The quotation and the first six contrasts in the graphic above are taken from John F. Walvoord,
The Return of the Lord (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1955), 87-88.
Pre-Trib Research Center - 4
Paul speaks of the rapture as a “mystery” (1 Cor. 15:51-54), that is a truth not revealed
until its disclosure by the apostles (Col. 1:26), making it a separate event, while the second
coming was predicted in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4).
The movement for the believer at the rapture is from earth to heaven, while it is from
heaven to earth at the second advent. At the rapture, the Lord comes for his saints (1
Thess. 4:16), while at the second coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thess. 3:13).
At the rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all
people. The rapture is a translation/resurrection event where the Lord takes believers “to
the Father’s house” in heaven (John 14:3), while at the second coming believers return from
heaven to the earth (Matt. 24:30). Hindson says, "The different aspects of our Lord’s return
are clearly delineated in the scriptures themselves. The only real issue in the eschatological
debate is the time interval between them."4
POST-TRIB PROBLEMS
One of the strengths of the pre-trib position is that it is best able to harmonize the many
events of end-time prophecy because of its distinction between the rapture and the
second coming. Normally, posttribulationists do not even attempt to answers such
objections and the few that try struggle with the biblical text putting forth stained
interpretations. Yet, pretribulationists do not encounter difficulties in providing answers.
What are some post-trib problems?
First, posttribulationism requires that the church will be present during the 70th week of
Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact
that Daniel 9:24 says that all 70 weeks are for Israel. Pretribulationism is not in conflict with
this passage, as is posttribulationism, since the church departs before the beginning of the
seven-year period.
Second, posttribulationism must deny the New Testament teaching of imminency–that
Christ could come at any-moment. Pretribulationism does not have a problem with these
New Testament passages, since they believe that no signs must precede the rapture.
Third, premillennial posttribulationism has no answer to their problem of who will
populate the millennium if the rapture and second coming occur at the same time. Since all
believers will be translated at the rapture and all unbelievers judged, because no
unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ’s kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal
bodies to start the population base for the millennium. The pre-trib viewpoint does not
have a problem at this point.
Fourth, posttribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the
second coming in Matthew 25:31-46. As in the previous problem, how would there be
any believers in mortal bodies, if they were raptured at the second coming, who would be
available to enter into Christ’s kingdom? Pretribulationism does not have such a problem.
Fifth, since Revelation 19:7-8 indicates that the church, Christ’s Bride, is made ready to
accompany Christ to earth (Rev. 19:14) before the second coming, how could this
reasonably happen if part of the church is still on earth awaiting Christ’s Advent? If the
rapture of the church takes place at the second coming, then how does the Bride (i.e., the
church) also come with Christ at His return? There would not be sufficient time for this to
happen within a posttribulational sequence, but the pre-trib position has no such problem.
CONCLUSION
The distinctions between Christ’s coming in the air to rapture His church are too great to
be reduced into a single coming at the end of the tribulation. These biblical distinctions
provide a strong basis for the pre-trib rapture teaching. When we consider that the church is
promised exemption from Israel tribulation (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10) and that the
70th week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) is for Israel and not the church, like the previous 69
4Hindson, Ibid.
Pre-Trib Research Center - 5
weeks, then it only follows that the church will be raptured before the tribulation. Such a
hope is indeed a “Blessed Hope.” Even so, come Lord Jesus! Maranatha!

Second, posttribulationism must deny the New Testament teaching of imminency–that
Christ could come at any-moment. Pretribulationism does not have a problem with these
New Testament passages, since they believe that no signs must precede the rapture.

actually bible never states that Jesus could come at any moment. the author of this article thinks bible says that?
no, Jesus only told us to watch for we do not know His return date and hour.
- and that's big dfference with immidient return because no matter what happens to prior His return it still leaves His return date unknown...
we don't know it now and we don't know it at tribulation except that it's near.
suspecting the day being near does not equal knowing when or how long. tribulation could last for days, months, or years.

But infact Lord wanted us to understand when it would be near (parable of fig tree) . Though date is still unknown, but probably because we could prepare our selfs then.

And He also said that when sun stops giving it's light we should find courage in the fact that He's coming right after that.

Mat 24:29-30
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


so date being unknown now doesn't mean we should have no idea of the time and event's that precede when it's near.

Originally Posted by El Hombre viejo

However, they often fail to make it clear to their readers that they
are just as dependent upon assumptions as they say pre-tribers are. Their error stems
from failure to observe actual biblical distinctions.

i don't think you have to make any assumptions to believe post-trib. it's actually very carefully laid out in the bible.

Originally Posted by jari

i don't think you have to make any assumptions to believe post-trib. it's actually very carefully laid out in the bible.

Then my friend You should keep reading it and ask the HOLY SPIRIT to give you revelation of it?

The Differenct Between the Rapture and the Second Coming

...none.

Margaret Macdonald's handwritten account in 1830 of her pre-Antichrist (or pretribulation) rapture discovery was reproduced in two of the 19th century books written by Catholic Apostolic Church historian Robert Norton. Her statement has long been in the public domain.

But some, like militant pretrib rapture defender and diehard Thomas Ice, have had trouble reproducing it accurately. In addition to a total of 49 omitted words in different sections, Ice's 1989 reproduction had 12 added words plus errors in spelling, capitalization, and punctuation!
Moreover, Ice's version also included four distinctive errors that Hal Lindsey had made in his 1983 reproduction, and that Tim LaHaye's 1992 reproduction left behind the same 49 words that Ice had left behind three years earlier!

Evidently, pretrib rapture promoters would rather copy - and miscopy - each other than take time to locate primary research documents!

Interestingly, if you look for the "Thomas Ice Collection" on websites including Rapture Ready's, you will find that "The Origin of the Pretrib Rapture - Part I" is glaringly missing, and the post you're now reading demonstrates why! If your pharmacist or doctor or lawyer or mechanic would have the sloppiness that many pretrib rapture promoters have, would you still trust them?

Originally Posted by El Hombre viejo

Then my friend You should keep reading it and ask the HOLY SPIRIT to give you revelation of it?

how you mean?
i posted thread in here while ago:
Why Pre-Trib is unbiblical

The Bible says he will come like a thief in the night. 2 Pet 3:10, 1 Thess 5:2, 1 Thess 5:4, Rev 3:3, Rev 16:15 all say the Lord will come when people are least expecting it. There is the parable of the 10 virgins, the moral of the story is make sure your lamp has oil in it when the bridegroom returns. ( Matt 25:1-10 )
The Bible says two will be in field working together, one will be taken, one will be left. Two will be lying in a bed together, one will be taken and one will be left. It says don't turn back (like Lots wife) and try to take care of last minute things, it says be ready.
( Matt 24:18, Mark 13:16, Luke 17:31 )
Jesus said he went to prepare a place for us, he said he will come back and get us.
Matt 24:43 says to be ready because we don't know when the "thief" will come.
The same parable is also in Luke 12:39. Jesus himself said he didn't know when he would come back. ( Matt 24:36, Matt 24:44, Mark 13:32, Luke 12:40 )

If the rapture is after the tribulation, then all of these verses are wrong. The tribulation will be an obvious thing (Matt 24:21, Mark 13:19, meteors falling from the sky, flying scorpions with the power to sting for 6 months, 250 million horsemen with horses that breathe fire, a third of the seas and rivers dried up, etc... ) If Jesus comes after the tribulation everyone will know when it is.

Some build a doctrine on Matt 24:29-30 and think this means the rapture won't happen until the tribulation, all this verse means is that some people will get saved during the rapture and when Christ returns (the 3rd coming for the millennial reign) he will gather them up also. Others try to use 2 Thess 2:3, this doesn't say it will happen after the tribulation, all it says is that the "man of apostasy" (the beast) will be revealed first. He could be revealed years before the rapture.

The Bible doesn't merely say "watch". It says watch and be ready because you don't know when he will return.

Originally Posted by B-A-C

If the rapture is after the tribulation, then all of these verses are wrong. The tribulation will be an obvious thing (Matt 24:21, Mark 13:19, meteors falling from the sky, flying scorpions with the power to sting for 6 months, 250 million horsemen with horses that breathe fire, a third of the seas and rivers dried up, etc... ) If Jesus comes after the tribulation everyone will know when it is.

ask your self a question. what if tribulation would be going on now,
would you know the day of Lord's return?
no you wouldn't...

you'd only know it's near. nearer than before tribulation. but not how near or which date.

Originally Posted by jari

how you mean?
i posted thread in here while ago:
Why Pre-Trib is unbiblical

Jari If you think Pretrib is unscriptural then you should go back to the beginning and start reading again. It's there.

Originally Posted by El Hombre viejo

Jari If you think Pretrib is unscriptural then you should go back to the beginning and start reading again. It's there.

read where?
most of the arguments made to support pre-trib idea are not good (unrealistic from scripture) in my opinion. that's why it's hard to believe it.