Ezekiel 28:
12 “… Thus says the Lord GOD:
“You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius,
topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned;
therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;
and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading;
therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror,
and shall be no more forever.”

Isaiah 14:
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ”I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.”
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying:
“Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms,
17 who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?”

Revelation 12:
7 “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon;
and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;
he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren,
who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea!
For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Revelation 20:
2 “… the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan …”

Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

God allows Satan to be the god/ruler/deceiver of this world
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4).
“the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
“him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).
“the devil has sinned from the beginning” (1 John 3:8).
“he was a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44).
“there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
“the accuser of our brethren (believers)” (Revelation 12:10).
“the ruler of the demons” (Matthew 12:24).
“the spiritual forces of wickedness” (Ephesians 6:12).
“the world forces of this (spiritual) darkness” (Ephesians 6:12).
“Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if
his (false) ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
“the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2).
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion,
seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

Originally Posted by John Zain

Ezekiel 28:
12 “… Thus says the Lord GOD:
“You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius,
topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned;
therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;
and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.
18 You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading;
therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror,
and shall be no more forever.”

Isaiah 14:
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ”I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.”
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying:
“Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms,
17 who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?”

Revelation 12:
7 “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon;
and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan,
who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,
and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren,
who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea!
For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Revelation 20:
2 “… the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan …”

Luke 10:
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

God allows Satan to be the god/ruler/deceiver of this world
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4).
“the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
“him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).
“the devil has sinned from the beginning” (1 John 3:8).
“he was a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44).
“there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
“the accuser of our brethren (believers)” (Revelation 12:10).
“the ruler of the demons” (Matthew 12:24).
“the spiritual forces of wickedness” (Ephesians 6:12).
“the world forces of this (spiritual) darkness” (Ephesians 6:12).
“Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if
his (false) ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
“the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2).
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion,
seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

Christians want someone to blame their sins on,or to be the cause of world problems.
They can't view the people as the cause of world problems,they view it's problems as been by a fallen angel i.e sin,war etc etc

The whole idea of satan,can be explained - but Christians do not like that...

It appeals to Christian nature for the source of evil to come from outside,not from inside...

Christians prefer the sin nature to come from another source,not from themselves....

A mixture of TV/Media and brainwashing builds up the idea of a supernatural fallen angel...

It breeds a narrow mind of world problems as well as ignorance as to what satan is and represents and a fear...

Matthew 15:17-20:¹⁷Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? ¹⁸But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
¹⁹For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
²⁰These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Mark 7:18-23:¹⁸And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
¹⁹Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
²⁰And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
²¹For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
²²Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
²³All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


James 1:14-15:¹⁴But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
¹⁵Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Jeremiah 17:9:The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Isaiah 44:6:Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Leviticus 16:21-22:²¹And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
²²And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Christians want someone to blame their sins on,or to be the cause of world problems.
They can't view the people as the cause of world problems,they view it's problems as been by a fallen angel i.e sin,war etc etc

The whole idea of satan,can be explained - but Christians do not like that...

It appeals to Christian nature for the source of evil to come from outside,not from inside...

Christians prefer the sin nature to come from another source,not from themselves....

In most of your post you seem to assume a lot of things about Christians. Would there be a reason for that, does this describe the way you are?

Jesus Is Lord.

Originally Posted by dagelos

Christians want someone to blame their sins on,or to be the cause of world problems.
They can't view the people as the cause of world problems,they view it's problems as been by a fallen angel i.e sin,war etc etc

The whole idea of satan,can be explained - but Christians do not like that...

It appeals to Christian nature for the source of evil to come from outside,not from inside...

Christians prefer the sin nature to come from another source,not from themselves....

I take it from the above statements, that you aren't a Christian?
Are you here to sincerely learn about Christianity or just to try to prove how wrong it is and convert the rest of us to.... islam? atheism? buddhism?

Originally Posted by dagelos

Christians want someone to blame their sins on,or to be the cause of world problems.
They can't view the people as the cause of world problems,they view it's problems as been by a fallen angel i.e sin,war etc etc

The whole idea of satan,can be explained - but Christians do not like that...

It appeals to Christian nature for the source of evil to come from outside,not from inside...

Christians prefer the sin nature to come from another source,not from themselves....

A mixture of TV/Media and brainwashing builds up the idea of a supernatural fallen angel...

It breeds a narrow mind of world problems as well as ignorance as to what satan is and represents and a fear...

Matthew 15:17-20:¹⁷Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? ¹⁸But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
¹⁹For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
²⁰These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Mark 7:18-23:¹⁸And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
¹⁹Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
²⁰And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
²¹For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
²²Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
²³All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


James 1:14-15:¹⁴But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
¹⁵Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Jeremiah 17:9:The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Isaiah 44:6:Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Leviticus 16:21-22:²¹And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
²²And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Dagelos,
For the most part the verses you quoted are not speaking of Satan. Also, the word "Lucifer" is not a correct translation. It should be translated "howl". Also, to say that God "allows" Satan to deceive is not really correct. God created Satan for the purpose of deceiving mankind. Satan is not a "fallen angel" as is commonly taught. He was created just as He is and God said that it is "good". Satan is good for the purpose he was created for and that is to deceive and bring evil.
Joe

Originally Posted by B-A-C

I take it from the above statements, that you aren't a Christian?
Are you here to sincerely learn about Christianity or just to try to prove how wrong it is and convert the rest of us to.... islam? atheism? buddhism?

I am a Christian.
But I feel the idea of satan among Christianity is false.

Originally Posted by Joe in Arkansas

Dagelos,
For the most part the verses you quoted are not speaking of Satan. Also, the word "Lucifer" is not a correct translation. It should be translated "howl". Also, to say that God "allows" Satan to deceive is not really correct. God created Satan for the purpose of deceiving mankind. Satan is not a "fallen angel" as is commonly taught. He was created just as He is and God said that it is "good". Satan is good for the purpose he was created for and that is to deceive and bring evil.
Joe

Lucifer in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,Hebrew is defined as...


1966 heylel hay-lale' from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--lucifer.

Jesus is the morning star.

Revelations 22:16:I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


You have to understand how the King of Babylon is been spoken to,this is sarcasm,taunt.

Isaiah 14:4:You shall take up this [taunting] parable against the king of Babylon and say, How the oppressor has stilled [the restless insolence]! The golden and exacting city has ceased!

- Amplified Bible


satan is not the one who brings evil.Do you really think God needs someone else to take care of the evil?

Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Originally Posted by Brother Mike

In most of your post you seem to assume a lot of things about Christians. Would there be a reason for that, does this describe the way you are?

Jesus Is Lord.

Because most Christians seem to believe in the idea of satan.


A proper understanding of satan will help in the learning - the idea that there is God and satan is idolatry.

Exodus 20:3:Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Isaiah 44:6:Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 45:6:That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Originally Posted by Joe in Arkansas

Satan is not a "fallen angel" as is commonly taught.
He was created just as He is and God said that it is "good".
Satan is good for the purpose he was created for and that is to deceive and bring evil.

Joe & Dagelos,

Why don't you read and believe the Scriptures in the OP?

Scripture clearly reveals that Satan and 1/3 of God's angels rebelled against God (of their own free will).

Question: Do you believe anything at all in the Scriptures, or just not the parts about Satan?

Originally Posted by John Zain

Joe & Dagelos,

Why don't you read and believe the Scriptures in the OP?

Scripture clearly reveals that Satan and 1/3 of God's angels rebelled against God (of their own free will).

Question: Do you believe anything at all in the Scriptures, or just not the parts about Satan?

Dear John,
Scripture only reveals that Satan "drew a third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth" (Rev 12). Satan was evil from the beginning and was not ever a "good" angel. He was a murderer from the beginning and there was never any truth in him (Joh 8:44). He did not choose to be this way anymore than we chose to be the way we are. God chose us both to be the way we are - He is the creator and He did not err in creating us the way we are. Also "free will" is not scriptural. God directs our paths and causes us to "will" and "do of His good pleasure". And yes, God does create evil but He uses it to accomplish good.

To answer your question, I believe all the scriptures but I totally reject the teachings of the harlot churches. Man was created evil and carnal. Adam and Eve were never perfect though they were for a short time without sin. If they were created "perfect", then they would never have sinned . God used Satan to bring out the sin nature that was already within Eve. God is not only responsible for Eve sinning but is the cause behind it. God planned for us to be sinners. Eve DID choose to sin but the choice she made was caused by God. In the carnal condition in which Eve was created, she could not have chosen to do anything different. And like Eve, we too are born carnal and cannot avoid sinning. If by our supposed "free will" we could choose not to sin, then we would not need a Savior. God gave the Law of Moses to prove to mankind that we are spiritually lacking and have a sin nature from birth. Because we are carnal and carnally minded, we are no different than a beast. But God will not leave us in this sinful condition forever. Christ came to pay our sin debt (death) and to cause all men to be "born again" into the Kingdom of Heaven (John 10:10). In the end, God will accomplish all that He stated He would do from the beginning and that was to create mankind in His image. Unfortunately for us, it is a long and painful process to be born into the family of God. But that is the way God chose to do it and we have no choice in the matter.

Rom 8:18-22 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature (mankind) mankind waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature (mankind) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature (mankind) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now (pain from the birth process). And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits (first but not only) of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Once God's creation has run its course, God will have produced many new sons and daughters and not just the first fruits of the harvest only but all of mankind. He is the creator and He is creating us in His image. When He is finished, we (mankind) will know both good and evil and will be fully like God in character and Spirit - no different than Christ Himself. Christ came to change mankind from the evil carnal people we all are, into the very image of His Father. He will not fail anyone. He is the Savior and it is up to Him to save us. God has spoken it:

1Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

and His Word will not return to Him void:

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Making sons and daughters of God is a long and painful process. God uses evil in that process so that we experientially know what evil is and how it differs from good. But He will not leave us in our evil condition, He has stated so in scripture. We must have patience and wait on the Lord for His great and glorious work to be accomplished.

So yes, I do believe in all the scripture, it is mainstream Christianity that does not.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe