Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts

Greeting's RJ

I find a few problems with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.

Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this.
In revelation there is war in heaven.
Revelation 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So if he had already fallen from heaven how did he get back in to play his part in the war in heaven?

Isaiah 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
This verse tells us that this being was brought down to the grave(Sheol) already.Satan is the prince of the power of the air at this present time.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Lucifer is like all the other dead kings of the earth.Satan is still at large.

Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
This event already took place to a man and Satan who is not a man is still at large.

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Satan never had a people,this man had land and a people.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
It gets really tough to try to make this fit Satan.
It seems to me it's about a man who is now in the grave.

The term "along with the noise of your harps" in 14:11 is often used to connect this man to the anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and place Lucifer in the garden as the serpent.
There is a connection between the cherub and Lucifer in that they are both men who went down to their graves they are both made a spectacle of before kings.They both had a glorious beginning and were perfect but fell.
The serpent was a beast of the field created at the same time the other beasts were.There is no fall of the beast serpent mentioned.

Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect to God,you or the body of Christ.
If I joined today I would call myself wrestinginhim.
The w is because I'm wrestling to enter into his rest.
Also I wrestle for the souls those lost in darkness.
Someday I would like to become Thisresurrectionisawesome.
In retrospect I do regret that the name is not particularly edifying.
However I joined at a time when I was having good success at overcoming evil with good and was becoming overburdened by of some of the sacrifices I had made.I joined TJ because it gave me peace to try to encourage others.I'm sure a certain percentage of members and guests can relate to the feeling that God has called them to do more than they can bear.Many have those "Father why have you forsaken me" seasons.

I would need to know your definition of Christian and your definition of living in me.I believe I am and I believe I do.

Thanks for the reply!

find a few problems with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.

Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this

I guess you will just have to bring that up with Isaiah someday!

I guess you will just have to bring that up with Isaiah someday!

Isaiah didn't make the connection between Lucifer and Satan,men did.He said Lucifer was a man and I believe him.Anyone who believes Lucifer is Satan might want to talk to him though.

Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts

Greeting's RJ

I find a few problems with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.

Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this.
In revelation there is war in heaven.
Revelation 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So if he had already fallen from heaven how did he get back in to play his part in the war in heaven?

Isaiah 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
This verse tells us that this being was brought down to the grave(Sheol) already.Satan is the prince of the power of the air at this present time.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Lucifer is like all the other dead kings of the earth.Satan is still at large.

Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
This event already took place to a man and Satan who is not a man is still at large.

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Satan never had a people,this man had land and a people.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
It gets really tough to try to make this fit Satan.
It seems to me it's about a man who is now in the grave.

The term "along with the noise of your harps" in 14:11 is often used to connect this man to the anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and place Lucifer in the garden as the serpent.
There is a connection between the cherub and Lucifer in that they are both men who went down to their graves they are both made a spectacle of before kings.They both had a glorious beginning and were perfect but fell.
The serpent was a beast of the field created at the same time the other beasts were.There is no fall of the beast serpent mentioned.

Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect to God,you or the body of Christ.
If I joined today I would call myself wrestinginhim.
The w is because I'm wrestling to enter into his rest.
Also I wrestle for the souls those lost in darkness.
Someday I would like to become Thisresurrectionisawesome.
In retrospect I do regret that the name is not particularly edifying.
However I joined at a time when I was having good success at overcoming evil with good and was becoming overburdened by of some of the sacrifices I had made.I joined TJ because it gave me peace to try to encourage others.I'm sure a certain percentage of members and guests can relate to the feeling that God has called them to do more than they can bear.Many have those "Father why have you forsaken me" seasons.

I would need to know your definition of Christian and your definition of living in me.I believe I am and I believe I do.

So how did you interpret this verse? :

"12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14

So how did you interpret this verse? :

"12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14

I can't say I understand it,I have tried to research further but there is much to consider.For most old testament scriptures I try to understand how the Jews before Jesus's time would interpret them.Then do a word study and see how the words were used during that time.

Here is a description from the JewishEncyclopedia:

Septuagint translation of "Helel [read "Helal"] ben Shaḥar"
(= "the brilliant one," "son of the morning"), name of the day, or morning, star, to whose mythical fate that of the King of Babylon is compared in the prophetic vision (Isa. xiv. 12-14).
It is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star; and Gunkel ("Schöpfung und Chaos," pp. 132-134) is undoubtedly correct when he holds that it represents a Babylonian or Hebrew star-myth similar to the Greek legend of Phaethon.
The brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night, may easily have given rise to a myth such as was told of Ethana and Zu: he was led by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star-gods on the northern mountain of the gods (comp. Ezek. xxviii. 14; Ps. xlviii. 3 [A.V. 2]), but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus. Stars were regarded throughout antiquity as living celestial beings (Job xxxviii. 7).

It's not very helpful but the Jews didn't consider him to be Satan.
There is some evidence that certain Jewish sects began making the connections just before Christ's appearance.
This is also from the JewishEncyclopedia:

The familiarity of the people of Palestine with such a myth is shown by the legend, localized on Mount Hermon, the northern mountain of Palestine and possibly the original mountain of the gods in that country, of the fall of the angels under the leadership of Samḥazai (the heaven-seizer) and Azael (Enoch, vi. 6 et seq.; see Fall of Angels). Another legend represents Samḥazai, because he repented of his sin, as being suspended between heaven and earth (like a star) instead of being hurled down to Sheol (see Midr. Abḳir in Yalḳ. i. 44; Raymund Martin, "Pugio Fidei," p. 564). The Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan in the pre-Christian century, as may be learned from Vita Adæ et Evæ (12) and Slavonic Enoch (xxix. 4, xxxi. 4), where Satan-Sataniel (Samael?) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high," Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss (comp. Test. Patr., Benjamin, 3; Ephes. ii. 2, vi. 12). Accordingly Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).

It could be referring to Satan,though I personally feel the evidence is not solid enough to form any kind of doctrine.
Wikipedia also has a very informative article on Lucifer.

My new definition of sin is unbelief.period...

The biblical definition of sin? What ever that definition is and I'm sure opinions vary, we know by the scriptures that it has been dealt with completely to God's satisfaction through Christ's death on the cross and sin no longer separates us from God. God won and sin lost.

God won and sin lost.

Yes,and now our new occupation is footstool maker.

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

That makes darkness and trials nothing but footstool material.

Unbelief that God defeated sin will give sin it's power back in your life.
So unbelief ends up being compliant with sin and exalts a defeated foe.