This is from a book I am writing. I just thought I'd throw it out there for fun. This is just one of the chapters. Let me know what you think. Even with all the Scripture, there are bound to be some people who disagree given the nature of the topic.

[quote="rojoloco"]We have all heard the saying, “God loves the sinner but hates the sin.” While it sounds nice and tickles the ears, have we ever really thought to stop and question this age old Sunday School teaching? I am here to say confidently that God does hate sin but he also does hate the sinner. God does not hate the sinner just for the sake of hating him. He hates the sinner because of the sin found in him. I know many of you are probably scratching your head and saying that is unbiblical but look at the following verses:

God does indeed hate sinners. Those verses listed above are not about God hating the sin in the world. They are clearly talking about sinners. We were all sinners at one point. We were all lost. We were all spiritually dead and separated from God.

Thankfully, God loved us enough to send His son to die on the cross so that we could be reconciled to Him.

People often use this passage (in conjunction with John 3:16) to say God loves everybody in the world. This simply is not the case. If it were, the verses I posted above would be lying to us. God cannot love everybody and hate people at the same time. It is not possible. Paul was speaking to believers in the book of Romans.

We cannot apply these words to the world because Paul specifically states they are for believers in Christ. What can we draw from Romans 5:6-10?
1) Christ died for the ungodly
2) while we were yet sinners Christ died for us
3) we shall be saved from the wrath of God

This is a very true statement. God loved the world. We were once in the world. He loved us in the world enough to offer a way to bring us back to Him. That way was through His Son. Christ did not die for everybody in the world. He died for us while we were still in the world. He died so that we may be able to come out of the world, die to ourselves, and become a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). At this point, we are saved from the wrath of God.

I do not believe God hated us while we were still sinners. Romans 5:8 tells us that God loved us while we were still sinners. If God hates all sinners, how is this possible? It is because God does not hate all sinners. He hates those whom He has not called to Himself. It is the ones that God has no intention of calling that He hates. Yes, He hates them. Read the first 3 verses I gave if you still do not believe God hates anyone. Again, God does not hate all sinners (because He loved us while we were still sinners) but He does very much so hate the rest of the sinners of this world.

How can I possibly back this up? I find Romans 9 helps to clear it up and put things in a proper perspective.

I do not believe the love of God is relevant to all. We are merely clay. God is the potter. Before the foundation of the world, He chose some to be vessels fitted unto honor. He chose others to be vessels fitted unto dishonor. God has His purpose. God has His Will. Got has His plans. Who are we to question how He has made us or what He has made us into? Who are we to question God if He chooses to harden our heart? Nobody seeks after God with their own heart (Psalm 14:2-3). It is only the elect that God ordained before the foundation of the world that He loves. Yes, they are sinners but they are sinners that fall under God's love. It is at this time only that the love of God even comes into play. Before this point, we were all merely clay.

But wait, can’t 2 Peter 3:9 be used to prove otherwise?

That verse does not say anything about the call of God nor does it speak of all of humanity. It speaks of the Purpose of God.

The word used for the “wishing” is ‎bou/lomai (boulomai)
The word most often used for the Call of God is kale/w (kaleo)

Boulomai is most often used when referring to the purposeful Will of God (Lk 22:42, Acts 5:28 & 33). It is not used to speak of general wants, desires or wishes. It is used to speak of decrees with purpose!

Even more, we must look at the verse and not just focus on the one word.

Peter wrote this letter to the Church. What do we see in the verse shown above? I'll show it again:

This verse is directed toward believers. It is encouragement for believers everywhere. It is reaffirming God's love toward us, the elect, whom He chose before the foundation of the world just as a potter forms clay. None of the elect from Romans 9 will perish (covered in our next chapter).

Since we know the word boulomai is used to refer to God's purposeful Will, we can safely believe it is not saying God purposefully Wills that all will be saved and none go to Hell. Since the Greek here does not refer to the Call of God, we can safely believe it is not saying “all men are called but only certain ones are saved” as is a common belief of today. It says God purposefully Wills that none will perish. How can this be if we know people will in fact perish? It is because Peter was not speaking of the entire world. He was speaking of and to believers. No believer will perish so be encouraged and have faith in the Truth. Peter is reassuring us, as believers, that God will not let us perish. We will not have to face His wrath.

God demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We were still in the world when Christ died. We were lost. God demonstrated His love toward us and none of us, who are called by God, will perish. It is not speaking of the entire world. It is referring to us while we were still in the world as sinners.

While we are on the subject, let’s break down 1 Peter 3:18:

Just as the "us" in 2 Peter 3:8 refers to believers, it points to the same crowd in 1 Peter 3:18. The death of Christ was not in vain. It was to reconcile the elect of God. Christ died for the sins of us once and for all and we will not face his wrath or perish.

God does not hate all sinners. God does not hate those whom are His elect. God hates those that will be going to Hell. He does not hate sinners that will be called to Him. While we were yet sinners God demonstrated His love toward us. On the same token, those whom He has not elected, God does indeed hate and has promised to destroy with His wrath.

Let’s review what we have covered up until now:
1) The Bible gives specific details on the fact that God does indeed hate sinners.
2) The Bible says God has purposefully willed (not called) that none should perish. We know many will perish so we must either count the Bible as contradicting or we must seek to find the context. In this case, the context is believers.
3) Bible says God loved believers while we were yet sinners. It is still very clear that God hates any sinner whom He has not called.
4) Romans 9 says not all are called.

All have sinned. Yes, believers are inclusive in Romans 3:23. Even if you wanted to say Romans 3:23 must follow the same “us/we” rules and claim it is only referring to believers, we know unbelievers sin. This is why they are going to be judged by the wrath of God. Again, all of Scripture must be taken into account. The implication of "us" is indeed written in many verses while being directed toward believers only.

Now the question remains as to why Christ died for all sins if some people are not going to be covered. I don't believe he did die for all sins. I believe he died for all the sins of the ones that God has called or will call at some point in the future. As to whom those people are, we have no idea. We are to preach Christ crucified. We are to be a bondservant to God. He tells us to do it and we gladly accept the task on unconditional terms. A bondservant is in a state of constant servitude but it is not out of hate while only pretending to love. Slaves had the option of leaving their master after a certain amount of time had passed. They had the choice to leaving or they could stay with their master for life. This was a lifelong choice. There was no going back. There was no leaving this state of constant servitude should they change their minds down the road. A bondservant would stay with their master if they truly loved their life and their master took care of them. Mary is described as a bondservant of the Lord. She did not hate God while only pretending to love Him. She truly loved Him and was glad to be a servant to Him for the rest of her life. In this way, we give glory to God and He works through us when and how He chooses. Witness unconditionally and let God decide who He calls according to Romans 9.

Rom 11:32 For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

How do you fit this scripture into your concept of God?

I know that the Lord loved me enough as a sinner to die for me on the cross when I was still a sinner. I also know that he hates the sin that separates me from him. I sin daily, I sure hope he doesn't hate sinners.

You are taking broad speaking and making it read specific. Paul is speaking on the broadest of terms possible. Let's back up 2 verses and look at 30-32.

Paul is speaking to Gentiles about Israel. First, he says that Israel was trapped in disobedience so that God could show mercy to the Gentiles. It then goes on to speak of the future when Gentiles would be trapped in disobedience so that God could show mercy to Israel. The "all" that is at the end of verse 32 is not speaking of all people specifically. It is referring to all types of people in broad terms. It is saying that God will show mercy to both Jews and Gentiles alike and not just one or the other. However, it is not saying He will show mercy to all Jews and all Gentiles. Scripture must always be taken in proper context. The only way to properly do this is to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

I'm going to assume you didn't really read my post and instead just breezed over it and came to your own conclusions of what you thought I said. Just a hunch as I addressed your specific statements in depth in the original post.

I see your point but I disagree with it. Look at young's literal translation.
Rom 11:30-32 for as ye also once did not believe in God, and now did find kindness by the unbelief of these: so also these now did not believe, that in your kindness they also may find kindness; for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

The Greek word πᾶς is translated as "all" in KJV
πᾶς
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole,


Everyone that was shut up to unbelief is shown kindness.

The war is over. God does not hate you, He's not even mad.
Why, why, why do some of us insist on living our spiritual lives trapped in the Old Testament and in the old Law of doing something to gain your salvation.

We live in the new Testament and the new covenant of grace. Don't you get it? It is a gift and if it is a gift it is free; there is nothing that you can do or don't do except recieve His reaurrected life.
The cross forgave your sins and God said that he would look at them no more. How many times and how many ways does He have to tell you this and that it is over...we are all born forgiven, Jesus took care of that at the cross.

Sure God hates sin, He thinks that it is an abomination. The truth is that He hates all sin and all sin is what seperates us from Him. He is perfect and we are imperfect, absolute perfectness can not coexist with in the same realm with any form of imperfectness. Do you have doubts about anything? Do you have fears about anything? Do you ever have any negative thoughts about anything?....Of course you do and on all three accounts. Well my friend brace yourself, those are all sins because they are impossibilities for God and therefore seperates us from Him and He hates all of them.

But, He loves you and He knows you can't go without sining, He should He made you! He also said that He abolished the Old covenant of the Law and totally replaced it with the new covenant of Grace.

And with in the miracles of this free gift of grace, and in His infinite and devine wisdom, devised a plan to permanently do away with the sin problem and a method for us to recieve His resurrected Sons's Spirit into our own being, giving us salvation and eternal life.

My brothers in all due love and respect, don't be allowed to drag yourself and others down with this constant obsession with sin. Please, understand the finality of the cross!
Blessings

If we take this route, we have to:

1) Call Scripture a lie
2) Say that all people will go to Heaven

Everything in your post (all the way down to the Greek) backs up what I am saying. The whole of mankind is shown kindness by allowing salvation to all. This salvation is not given to all men but rather all types of men.

Notice that it is all in the same book as well. The subject is not all men but rather all of mankind.

Scripture please? I've provided plenty for my end.

I'm guessing you really didn't read my post either as it says the exact opposite of this.

I get it. I also agreed with this wholeheartedly in my post. However, this gift is not given to all. God is not simply on the sidelines. He is sovereign in all things.

Agreed. However, this cross is only efficient for those that the Father has given to the Son before the foundation of the world. To all else, it is ineffective as they are not given to the Son.

Agreed. I posted many Scriptural examples of this. On the flip side, I also posted many Scriptural examples of God hating people as well (unbelievers only) and not solely the sin. The Bible says it so I repeat it. I didn't just make it up.

Again, this is for those given to the Son by the Father. For the rest, there is no grace given to them but common grace. Saving grace is totally devoid in their lives.

We are not to sin but if we do, we can rest easy knowing that we have an Advocate. I do not disagree with any of this. At the same time, I do not fool myself into thinking God's love is for everybody when the Bible teaches otherwise. We were not created to share in God's love. We were created to bring glory to God. Some bring Him glory by sharing in His love through regeneration. Others will bring Him glory when they are destroyed by His wrath. These people will not share in His love whatsoever but they are still giving Him glory. God's love is for His Elect as a byproduct of regeneration.

For those who have been given to the Son, I agree in full. For those who were not (before the foundation of the world), they will forever be bound by the chains of sin. In fact, they are not only bound by them but willingly follow. We are told the unbeliever does the will of their father. It then calls their father Satan. This means the unbeliever willingly follows Satan unless God changes their nature and sets them free. It is all God. If we have been set free, we cling to Christ and are free from sin. Scripture tells us if we have been set free by the Son, we are free indeed. Take comfort!

No, actually you see it that way but that's because your paradigm is based on a Calvinistic interpretation of scripture.

I believe in the scriptures just not your interpretation of them.