Originally Posted by Joe Johnston

Doc,

No offense to you but I happen to agree with SLE.
I think your statement about anyone not believing what you believe with the passages of Mathew and John and, that in your opinion, that they therefore are not indwelt with the only Holy Spirit. That’s tragic; because that is the same as saying they are not saved!?
Since Jesus would have known in advance whether these people would ultimately be saved, didn’t mean that they did not have the right to choose Him after his death and resurrection. I agree with SLE, any of these people that Jesus was referring to, could have been saved; they probably weren’t, but they had as much right to God’s Grace as anyone.

You just can’t say for sure if any of them accepted Christ or not. Jesus Christ died for all, so their sins were not the issue. And Jesus Christ said unbelief was the only sin that would keep man unsaved

If you truly believe in what you say, you run the risk of not understandings God’s Grace…God’s free gift of Christ and how He brings salvation to all who believe.

Joe: I take no offense whatsoever. Clearly, you are entitled to believe what you like. That certainly doesn’t offend me - why should it?

However, I do not appreciate being misquoted. This happens frequently, and I’m not quite sure how this happens when the written posts are right in front of folks when they are responding.

You said, “I think your statement about anyone not believing what you believe with the passages of Mathew and John and, that in your opinion, that they therefore are not indwelt with the only Holy Spirit.”

That is NOT what I said. My statement was, and I quote it directly from my post, “How any professing believer, with the indwelling Spirit of God, could read passages like Matthew 23:13-36 or verses like John 8:44 and walk away believing these folks could possibly have been saved is quite amazing.”

Do you see that Joe? I simply stated that it was amazing how a believer could read those passages and come to that conclusion. I never said it was my opinion SLE didn’t have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And Joe, if you wish to believe that once God the Son pronounced the judgment of condemnation on those folks they can be saved, then help yourself. People these days believe all kinds of things.

And as for me having an understanding of the grace of God - I can only smile at such a remark. My whole life and ministry is based on the grace of God.

However, I also appreciate the judgment of God. I seek to understand it as well as I do His grace. Because WITHOUT JUDGMENT, there is no grace! You might think about that for a while Joe.

So, no matter what you, or SLE, or anyone else thinks about it, I can tell you upon the full authority of Scripture, ONCE GOD PRONOUNCES JUDGMENT ON A MAN HE IS WITHOUT HOPE! But, of course, if you fine folks don’t believe that, the issue isn’t with me. Take it up with HIM. BLESSINGS. Doc

Titus 3:10, "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

To have open statements is to have oneself misinterpreted.
There are plenty of individuals, being indwelt with the only spirit that is, that don't see it the way you do; I'm one of them.

Especially after Christ died, the truth is that anyone can blaspheme Christ and still be saved.....but, you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

You have no way of knowing who recieved the Holy Spirit and who didn't in that day.

And as far as your judgement statement, when Christ died, He ushered in the New Covenant. We live in the New Covenant and , in fact, God said that he abolished the Old Covenant. You show me where the bible talks about your kind of judgement in the new testament.

Once Christ died, those people, who you say were already judged,
were forgiven for there sins as much as you or I and they have as much right to God's saving Grace.

So, my friend, we can just agree to disagree.
God's Blessing to you.

Originally Posted by Joe Johnston

To have open statements is to have oneself misinterpreted.
There are plenty of individuals, being indwelt with the only spirit that is, that don't see it the way you do; I'm one of them.

Especially after Christ died, the truth is that anyone can blaspheme Christ and still be saved.....but, you can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

You have no way of knowing who recieved the Holy Spirit and who didn't in that day.

And as far as your judgement statement, when Christ died, He ushered in the New Covenant. We live in the New Covenant and , in fact, God said that he abolished the Old Covenant. You show me where the bible talks about your kind of judgement in the new testament.

Once Christ died, those people, who you say were already judged,
were forgiven for there sins as much as you or I and they have as much right to God's saving Grace.

So, my friend, we can just agree to disagree.
God's Blessing to you.

Well, Joe, since you asked for New Covenant verses I will respect your wishes, even though normally Old Covenant verses should be cited as well, because many of the New Covenant verses are re-quotes of the Old Testament. What many folks don’t realize is that a significant portion of what is written in the New Testament are quotes from the Old Testament. But I will honor your wishes.

I will begin with just a few - there are hundreds - and we’ll see how it goes.

1Peter 2:8; 2Peter 2:12,14,17; Romans 11:7-8; Jude 4.

Now, with all due respect Joe, I am not going to put myself in a position of “arguing” in a written format. It is too easy to be misunderstood when “body language,” voice inflection, etc. are removed from the equation. You can't easily discern if a person is calm, or angry, etc.

I do count it a privilege to be able to explain my understanding of biblical matters to others. I have invested the majority of my adult life doing just that. However, I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. That is God’s business.

I will not put myself in a position to enter endless debate and rhetoric with those who just wish to be caustic and argumentative. Truthfully, I don’t think that is your interest. But it seems to be the interest of some. So, I just wanted to make myself clear about my intentions with these written dialogues. BLESSINGS. Doc

You are right.
If you or anyone else feels that we are arguing, rather than having a healthy discourse, that is negative, sinful and needs to stop.

I just happen to have a different understanding of these verse and, evidently a different understanding of Grace than you do.

We can just respectfully agree to disagree and others reading our threads can do the same.

Blessings to you and your ministry,
Joe

Originally Posted by Joe Johnston

You are right.
If you or anyone else feels that we are arguing, rather than having a healthy discourse, that is negative, sinful and needs to stop.

I just happen to have a different understanding of these verse and, evidently a different understanding of Grace than you do.

We can just respectfully agree to disagree and others reading our threads can do the same.

Blessings to you and your ministry,
Joe

Joe: Thank you for your kind spirit. I certainly respect the fact that you have a different understanding of the verses I offered and of grace itself.

And if you would bear with me, I would like to introduce a couple of more thoughts for your prayerful consideration.

The Old Testament establishes a principle that carries over into the New Testament. I will quote three verses: 2Chronicles 36:16: “But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy.” Proverbs 6:15: “Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.” Proverbs 29:1: “He, that often being reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.”

In each of these three verses, I want you to notice a key word REMEDY - I have underlined it. The Hebrew word for “remedy” is marpe (mar-pay) which means “NO CURE - NO DELIVERANCE.”

We find this principle demonstrated in the New Testament in a number of places. I will mention but a couple at this time. First we find in Romans 1:28, “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind…” Next, the Bible says in 2Thessalonians 2:11-12, “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

When God gives someone up - when God cuts someone off without remedy - when God sends someone a strong delusion to believe a lie that they might be damned - there is NO HOPE LEFT.

And when it comes to GRACE, from a biblical perspective, GRACE is a very misunderstood word - not necessarily in its meaning, but in its application. Consider carefully what is written in Jude 4, “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Underlining is mine.)

Actually, the grace of God that produces salvation (Jude 3) doesn’t biblically look much like a lot of the “grace” that is preached and taught today. God’s grace does not free a person to live how he pleases (lasciviousness) - God’s grace frees a person to fulfill the will of God for their life! God’s grace frees us FROM sin - not TO sin. God’s grace grants us the LIBERTY to live according to God’s will, not the LICENSE to live however we please and then go to heaven. That isn’t GRACE, that is LASCIVIOUSNESS. Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:12-13, Titus 2:11-14, et al.

Just some food for thought. BLESSINGS. Doc

Doc,

With regard to our previous threads and since you persist on your point view, I feel I must reply in order for others to get a fair and balanced discussion:

• You said: The Old Testament establishes a principle that carries over into the New Testament. I totally disagree;

1. The very instant that Christ died on the cross, the New Covenant of love and Grace was ushered in by God. In fact in HEB 8:13, God , at that instant, He abolished the Old Covenant (Law and Legalism).
2. Your Old Covenant Marpe or "No Cure", "No deliverance', does not apply. Grace has taken over and it is free to EVERYONE and the exception, of course, are non believers.

• Grace

1. Lasciviousness has occured and still does but not by believers. To be a believer (saved) and still live in lasciviousnes is a conundrum, the two can not coexsist. In HEB 4:4-6 Paul is actually talking about people that could live in lasciviousness. Here, Paul says it is impossible to bring people back who fall away, meaning that these are people who, may have talked a good Christian life; but, you can't bring them back because they were not saved in the first place.
2. Once truly saved, always saved and you will not exhibit lasciviousness.
3. Sin and Grace. Your approach is just as wrong as lasciviousness. From Romans 6: 1-11: Grace does not free us from sining, He frees us from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death. In these verses, God tells me that yes you are free from sin, dead to sin. But, you are not dead to sining!

Look at it this way. God is a perfect and sinless being, right?
Anything outside of His perfectness is sin. Can you go 24/7, the rest of your mortal life with out having, say, some doubt, or just being negative about something? Both are sin to God's perfectness.
When we die, God will look at us,see Jesus Christ, who lives in us and is perfect. At that point He will perfect us so we can live in His perfect realm. And as Paul puts it, we will see Him face to face and know Him as perfectly as He knows us.
But now, we are still in an imperfect state and have a sin nature. As a Christian, it is still sin, but we are not a slave to it. That has nothing to do with lasciviousness!
Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Joe Johnston

Doc,


With regard to our previous threads and since you persist on your point view, I feel I must reply in order for others to get a fair and balanced discussion:

• You said: The Old Testament establishes a principle that carries over into the New Testament. I totally disagree;

1. The very instant that Christ died on the cross, the New Covenant of love and Grace was ushered in by God. In fact in HEB 8:13, God , at that instant, He abolished the Old Covenant (Law and Legalism).
2. Your Old Covenant Marpe or "No Cure", "No deliverance', does not apply. Grace has taken over and it is free to EVERYONE and the exception, of course, are non believers.

• Grace

1. Lasciviousness has occured and still does but not by believers. To be a believer (saved) and still live in lasciviousnes is a conundrum, the two can not coexsist. In HEB 4:4-6 Paul is actually talking about people that could live in lasciviousness. Here, Paul says it is impossible to bring people back who fall away, meaning that these are people who, may have talked a good Christian life; but, you can't bring them back because they were not saved in the first place.
2. Once truly saved, always saved and you will not exhibit lasciviousness.
3. Sin and Grace. Your approach is just as wrong as lasciviousness. From Romans 6: 1-11: Grace does not free us from sining, He frees us from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death. In these verses, God tells me that yes you are free from sin, dead to sin. But, you are not dead to sining!

Look at it this way. God is a perfect and sinless being, right?
Anything outside of His perfectness is sin. Can you go 24/7, the rest of your mortal life with out having, say, some doubt, or just being negative about something? Both are sin to God's perfectness.
When we die, God will look at us,see Jesus Christ, who lives in us and is perfect. At that point He will perfect us so we can live in His perfect realm. And as Paul puts it, we will see Him face to face and know Him as perfectly as He knows us.
But now, we are still in an imperfect state and have a sin nature. As a Christian, it is still sin, but we are not a slave to it. That has nothing to do with lasciviousness!
Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ.

Joe: On the matter of grace, we probably agree more than we disagree, actually. I think part of this conversation is evidence of a failure in communication - maybe on my part.

But before I get to that, I first want to address the first point. Simply stated, it is my position, that once God turns a person over to a reprobate mind, there is no hope for salvation. Apparently that is not yours, based on your responses. I could provide a significant number of verses from both covenants to support my understanding of this. Romans Chapter 9 would be a good study for anyone interested in a New Testament passage addressing this issue.

Since it must be your position that the Old Testament has no value any longer for New Testament believers - contrary to New Testament teaching - see Romans 3:31 for just one example - I will refrain from providing Old Testament passages. It is true that we are not saved by the sacrificial system of the Old Testament, but the God of the Old Testament is not a different God. God’s character and attributes are never-changing. Jesus, as well as all authors of Scripture, constantly quote the Old Testament to support New Testament doctrine. So, you have your position and I have mine - and that is settled.

Now on the matter of grace, I am a little confused at what you are responding to. Again, probably my failure. I don’t disagree about what SAVING grace is, I don’t disagree that SAVING grace secures the believer eternally, I don’t disagree that we still sin once we are saved by the grace of God. I do believe, however, that the grace of God liberates us, not just from the penalty of sin, but also from the POWER of sin over our lives. We are now FREE to yield our members unto righteousness! Romans 6:1-17 is an excellent treatise of this very doctrine.

My point about grace was that much of what is taught today is NOT THE SAVING GRACE OF GOD. I thought I made my explanation clear, but maybe not. God’s grace is not JUST A FREE TICKET OUT OF HELL. God’s grace is given to change a man so he can fulfill the will of God in this life by living a life that brings glory to God. This unbiblical canon fodder that a person can simply bow their head, say a little prayer, and go on about their life as before - no repentance - no conversion - no new life - is a lie right out of the pit of hell. That kind of “grace” is foreign to all Scripture - period. My position, maybe not yours. Anyway, unless you have some additional response, I will leave this where it is.

Hopefully, if I was at all confusing in the past, this has cleared up my position on both points.

God bless you brother. I appreciate you. Doc

I see the key ingredient missing from this discourse, as it is usually missing from those that teach on grace, that is, Faith! We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH: grace does not work alone, but is saving only through faith, which is our sincerity toward God; and this only God knows, who is sincere, and who is only pretending; and this is apart from unbelieving mankind. Our marriage to Christ shall be for those that have been faithful, just as a marriage is suppose to be; The husbandman(groom) is faithful, and so also is the bride to be faithful, otherwise there will be no marriage for those that were not. And this mercy for our undeserving chance, which is given us through the sacrifice of Christ; this mercy rejoices against judgment. God looks for sincerity, just as He did with Abraham, that is, who is truly sincere, and who is not. And as for our attitude, we should not at any time suppose ourselves to be something, but we ought to know that we are unworthy to unloosen His shoe latches; and unworthy that He should enter under our roof; and such like manner of persons ought we to be before the Lord. We all agree that grace is undeserving; well then, let us behave as undeserving then, and be clothed with humility.

Doc,

I give you the last word my brother.
Praise be to God for His saving grace.
Joe