I have posted a sermon in the sermon section of the forum that speaks to this question beautifully.

It is titled "Internal Salvation".

In case anyone is interested....

This thread runs on...........

The important question remains.......Have you met Jesus.?

If you have met the Master....in whatever way....

Saul of Tarsus met Jesus riding a donkey as he pursued his religeous frame. Book of Act ch.9


Meeting Jesus is paramont....absolutely vital......debate is futile

Experience.....essential

Originally Posted by stephen

This thread runs on...........

The important question remains.......Have you met Jesus.?

If you have met the Master....in whatever way....

Saul of Tarsus met Jesus riding a donkey as he pursued his religeous frame. Book of Act ch.9


Meeting Jesus is paramont....absolutely vital......debate is futile

Experience.....essential

Some interesting thoughts, Stephen. But consider this. A lot of people have MET Jesus. The rich young ruler, Judas Iscariot, the scribes, the Pharisees, Pontius Pilate, Roman soldiers, those who mocked Him, those who spat upon Him - the list is quite exhaustive. They MET Him and yet were just as LOST as a goose in a horserace! Many others throughout the last 2,000 years have MET Him through the pages of Scripture, with the same result.

And as far as the thought that “debate is futile” goes, it appears that the Apostle Paul had a different position. As a matter of fact, Paul spends much time and effort in the writing of many of his letters for the purpose of defending his Apostleship and his teachings. The books of First and Second Corinthians and Galatians are just three examples of this. And since we are to be a follower of Paul, as he follows Christ - 1Corinthians 11:1 - and that Paul’s life is to be a pattern for believers - 1Timothy 1:16 - and that Jude exhorts us to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” - Jude 3 - from a biblical perspective it doesn’t appear that debate is futile.

I will forever take the position that the authority of the Bible is better than opinions and feelings. BLESSINGS. Doc

Originally Posted by Doc

A lot of people have MET Jesus. The rich young ruler, Judas Iscariot, the scribes, the Pharisees, Pontius Pilate, Roman soldiers, those who mocked Him, those who spat upon Him - the list is quite exhaustive. They MET Him and yet were just as LOST as a goose in a horserace! Many others throughout the last 2,000 years have MET Him through the pages of Scripture, with the same result.

Judas Iscariot's condemnation is confirmed by Scripture ( Acts 1:15-20). But, where is it shown in Scripture that the other individuals listed were never converted? Where is it shown that none of the Scribes, Pharisees, or Roman soldiers were never converted?

We need to avoid jumping to the conclusion that all of these peoples' hearts were never softened toward Him after His death and rfesurrection.To do so is to cast doubt on the Holy Spirit's power.

SLE

True, only God knows their heart and I have seen folks come to Christ with their dieing breath. We just never really know who God is going to pull out of the fire.
Many people know about Jesus. Just like His earth walk still more follow Him for the loaves and the fishes. Then ones that know Him are the ones that belong to Him.

Originally Posted by SpiritLedEd

Judas Iscariot's condemnation is confirmed by Scripture ( Acts 1:15-20). But, where is it shown in Scripture that the other individuals listed were never converted? Where is it shown that none of the Scribes, Pharisees, or Roman soldiers were never converted?

We need to avoid jumping to the conclusion that all of these peoples' hearts were never softened toward Him after His death and rfesurrection.To do so is to cast doubt on the Holy Spirit's power.

SLE

How any professing believer, with the indwelling Spirit of God, could read passages like Matthew 23:13-36 or verses like John 8:44 and walk away believing these folks could possibly have been saved is quite amazing. But, believe what you will. BLESSINGS. Doc

Originally Posted by Doc

By way of introduction, I want to mention that when the term “Christian” was first coined in early New Testament times, it was a term of derision, as used in Acts 11:26 and 1Peter 4:16. Simply stated, when folks called someone a “Christian” it was not a term of endearment!

However, putting that history aside for the moment, let us focus on our current understanding of the term “Christian” in the 21^st Century. If we conducted a survey on the streets of America, we would have an untold number of ideas and beliefs on the definition. So, let’s put aside all of the church creeds, denominational statements of faith, catechisms, confessions of faith, and such like, and let’s focus solely on what the Holy Scriptures define for us a true Christian to be.

With great appreciation, I anticipate that those who respond to this “thread” will stick strictly to the Bible as their sole authority and will quote corresponding Scripture references for their position. Any thing else offered is mere opinion - and even though opinions are interesting - they are not authoritative.

I look forward to everyone’s responses. I trust this will be an interesting study for us all. BLESSINGS. Doc

A Christian is a true follower of Christ. Jesus tells us who they are in John 10:27-29, MT. 25:31-46, MT. 7:21-23, John 14:20, MT. 13:18-23 and the whole book of 1 John among other verses.

But unfortunately, once Christianity was mixed with the affairs of the government since Constantine, then people were executed if they didn't go to church. That began centuries of people claiming to be Christians our of fear rather than being born again. That unfortunately, has led to many people calling themselves Christians like one calls himself a Caucasian.

Originally Posted by Doc

How any professing believer, with the indwelling Spirit of God, could read passages like Matthew 23:13-36 or verses like John 8:44 and walk away believing these folks could possibly have been saved is quite amazing. But, believe what you will. BLESSINGS. Doc

I see nothing in those citations that pronounces permanent condemnation on any individuals in that room. Go back to John 8:24 where Jesus tells the Pharisees they will die in their sin IF they CHOOSE TO NOT BELIEVE that He is the Messiah There's no way that I can make a blanket statement that all of the men Jesus was speaking to there were condemed to eternal Hell fire. Some of those men were present when He died and witnessed the events that followed immediately thereafter. Who's to say that their hearts were never softened?

Salvation is available to anyone who has heard the Gospel up to the very moment of death. My son died of liver disease in August of 2007. He had rejected Christianity all of his adult life until approximately thirty minutes before he passed away, when he made a sincere confession of Jesus as his Lord and Savior. I know it was sincere because I was the one who led him to Christ. The Holy Spirit's presence was palpable in that hospice room that afternoon. It was awesome!

SLE

Originally Posted by SpiritLedEd

I see nothing in those citations that pronounces permanent condemnation on any individuals in that room. Go back to John 8:24 where Jesus tells the Pharisees they will die in their sin IF they CHOOSE TO NOT BELIEVE that He is the Messiah There's no way that I can make a blanket statement that all of the men Jesus was speaking to there were condemed to eternal Hell fire. Some of those men were present when He died and witnessed the events that followed immediately thereafter. Who's to say that their hearts were never softened?

Salvation is available to anyone who has heard the Gospel up to the very moment of death. My son died of liver disease in August of 2007. He had rejected Christianity all of his adult life until approximately thirty minutes before he passed away, when he made a sincere confession of Jesus as his Lord and Savior. I know it was sincere because I was the one who led him to Christ. The Holy Spirit's presence was palpable in that hospice room that afternoon. It was awesome!

SLE

Well, SLE, if you can read and study Matthew 23 and John 8 and come away believing they could have been saved - believe what you like. “It’s no skin off my nose” as they say. People believe all kinds of things because it makes them feel good. You can believe in universal salvation if you care to. What is true, is true. No matter what you, or I, or anyone else believes about it.

At age 62, and being in my fourth decade of full time ministry, I have found most BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT - no matter what the Bible says about anything! The Bible becomes their pacifier - it is no more their authority in all matters of faith and eternity than Santa Claus. But once again, you - and everyone else - are free to believe whatever they want - UNTIL THEY FACE GOD. BLESSINGS. Doc

Doc,


No offense to you but I happen to agree with SLE.
I think your statement about anyone not believing what you believe with the passages of Mathew and John and, that in your opinion, that they therefore are not indwelt with the only Holy Spirit. That’s tragic; because that is the same as saying they are not saved!?
Since Jesus would have known in advance whether these people would ultimately be saved, didn’t mean that they did not have the right to choose Him after his death and resurrection. I agree with SLE, any of these people that Jesus was referring to, could have been saved; they probably weren’t, but they had as much right to God’s Grace as anyone.


You just can’t say for sure if any of them accepted Christ or not. Jesus Christ died for all, so their sins were not the issue. And Jesus Christ said unbelief was the only sin that would keep man unsaved
If you truly believe in what you say, you run the risk of not understandings God’s Grace…God’s free gift of Christ and how He brings salvation to all who believe.