You asked the wrong question. The question is, if that is the right answer, then how many have really been redeemed? Read 1Corinthians Chapter 13, meditate on what real Biblical love really looks like, and tell me how many professing Christians you know - including yourself - that measure up. BLESSINGS. DocOriginally Posted by Hekuran
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Doc I don't know if you read Hekuran reply but he has scriptures written down about the fruit.
Maybe if you have a concordance you can do a search on it. As you search I hope within your spirit you will find the answer that will bring peace to your questions.
God Bless, Trish
I was answering your question, how does a person recognize a follower of Christ? The Bible says that the Christians will be recognised by all the world on account of their love and their unity. My response does not touch on the question of redemption.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
I know many people, who though far from perfect, are recognisable as belong to Jesus Christ by these qualities. Praise God!
But is not a REDEEMED PERSON a Christian and a Christian a REDEEMED PERSON? Can you Biblically separate the two? BLESSINGS. Doc
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
No, I don't think there is any biblical ground for separating the two.
The honest answer to your earlier question – how many have been redeemed – is that God knows.
Galatians 3:26-29
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
Maybe the simplest and most elegant definition of a Christian would be "belonging to Christ". Those who belong to Christ are heirs of all that is offered in the Galatians passage quoted above.
AMEN, Hekuran! You have nailed it down tight. You have offered one of the most succinct Biblical answers to the question.
Too many times folks think of FRUIT as “behavior” - which some behavior is fruit, but not always. Jesus speaks to this in Matthew 7:21-23. What LOOKS like fruit, isn’t always. “Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.” The real FRUIT of a genuine believer - aka Christian - is their FAITH in Christ.
All kinds of folks go about doing all kinds of works in the name of Christ - even the cults. They believe they are a Christian because of their upbringing, some “sacraments” they’ve received, their denominational affiliation, their good deeds towards their fellow man, church membership, etc. Those things no more make a person a Christian than a child pretending to fly makes him an airplane.
A real Christian is someone who BELONGS TO CHRIST due to their faith in Him.
Thank you for your thoughtful input. I appreciate you. I pray that others who may read this thread will be helped in their understanding of what a Christian REALLY IS. BLESSINGS. Doc
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
I am not sure about your interpretation of fruit being faith in Christ.
The Bible passages that speak of fruit that I am most familiar read most naturally when fruit is understood as the works or behaviour that faith in Christ produces. I am thinking mainly of Matthew 7:15-19 Galatians 5:22 and Colossians 1:10.
"By their fruits you shall know them..." I cannot directly know or judge somebody's faith - that is for God alone. So Jesus says we should look at the results of a person's faith to know the source of it. I mean judge in the sense of being judicious about who we listen to or follow, not being judgemental.
Could you let me know a little more about how you came to your conclusion? Thanks.
Last edited by Hekuran; 08-04-09 at 11:12 AM.
Well, let’s begin where we left off. I cited Matthew 7:21-23 as an example that even though certain behaviors - “works” - appear godly or religious, they very well may be meaningless. In that immediate context, verses 16-20, the Lord gives us a very good object lesson. It has to do with the “kind” of fruit produced by a tree. When we go back to Genesis Chapter 1, we see on a number of occasions an absolute principle of reproduction (actually not discovered by man’s science until the 16th Century A.D. through the research of scientist Gregor Mendel) and that principle is everything living reproduces “after its kind.”
Now follow me. A genuine believer’s faith likewise also reproduces itself AFTER ITS KIND. That is, Christians reproduce Christians. Dogs reproduce dogs. Camels reproduce camels. Sheep reproduce sheep. Apples reproduce apples. Pears reproduce pears. And God’s people reproduce believers! That is, people of FAITH, reproduce people of FAITH. The fruit of FAITH, is FAITH.
And then to refer to one of the verses you cited, Galatians 5:22. One facet of the FRUIT of the Spirit - notice that the word FRUIT is singular, not plural - is FAITH. The FRUIT of the Spirit is like a gemstone, it is one singular jewel with many facets - in this case nine.
So FAITH, is an absolute part of the FRUIT of the Spirit. And, notice, it is not MY fruit. It is the FRUIT of the Spirit, therefore it is a work of God, not man. You see, the FRUIT of the Spirit is not a behavior, it is nine spiritual facets of the Spirit that resides in the believer, and they are all “spiritual” facets. Now, the outworking of this fruit is no doubt manifested in certain behaviors, BUT those “behaviors” can be counterfeited. And they often are. Jesus speaks to this repeatedly throughout the Gospels. The genuine article is determined BY WHAT IT REPRODUCES - and what it reproduces is people of FAITH. God works through me to reproduce people of faith. God didn’t just save me for my sake. He saved me also for the sake of others, as He works through me. The same is true for you and every other believer.
I trust this answers your questions. BLESSINGS. Doc
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Ok. I appreciate the detailed reply. I'll give it some thought. My first response, though, is that it is simpler and more satisfactory to read fruits as the outward expression of faith - that is, in a life that honours God.
I certainly understand and appreciate your comment. And I certainly agree that genuine faith will always manifest itself in the life of the believer in a number of ways.
Also, consider this. When it comes to a life that honors God, what could honor Him more than the reproducing of faith in others? As I am sure you know, when it comes to pleasing God, the Bible says in Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please Him..." No matter WHAT we do, without faith God is NOT pleased. It is IMPOSSIBLE to please Him without FAITH.
Now, I know what I am about to say is “subjective” but my experience over a number of decades has shown me that people are more drawn to Christ as they observe the FAITH of a believer than they are by observing the WORKS of a believer. Every day, multitudes of people observe others as they give to charities, feed the poor, adopt orphan children, build church buildings, start orphanages, visit terminally folks in Hospice, etc. As commendable as those things are, very few people are persuaded to become a believer due to their observation of these good works.
HOWEVER, when folks observe a person who is terminally ill, or who has just buried a young spouse, or who has just buried a child, or who has lost their home and means of income, or all their worldly goods due to a natural disaster, or has learned their loved one has been killed in war - and yet their response to that tragedy is one of FAITH and trust in the Almighty Sovereign God whose way is perfect (Psalm 18:30) and they let all the world know they trust God by FAITH no matter what - now, that my friend, is a FRUIT that produces LIFE in others!
That is my experience. That is a practical application - "subjective" as it is - to the "objective" truth of Scripture. Thank you for “listening.” BLESSINGS. Doc
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
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