Originally Posted by Beans

Regarding self defense. I think that Jesus did mean for us to follow his example of dying on the cross. Not that our deaths would have anywhere near the same power as his does. When Jesus said, "love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek" he is talking about us being a living testimony of God's love to those who hate us and persecute us. Just look at the martyrs.

I agree about that we should be a living testimony and that we are an example of God's love when we love even our persecutors. Also that love can overcome evil and evil can never overcome evil.

However, a more historical context to Jesus' words can be made. In the culture Jesus was speaking in, it was common for Roman soldiers, or others in authority to strike a lower-class person's face with the back of the hand as a display of dominance and authority. The right hand was always used, just as when they performed a Roman salute with their right arm, etc.
Apparently, the left hand was never used for anything but "unclean" purposes, and as such was never equated with power and authority like the right hand was. The bible talks exclusively about God's right hand too, so there is something to the concept of power being in the right hand.

Therefore, if the striker could only use the back of his right hand, when the other cheek was turned it would not be an option for him to strike the victim again with the back of his left hand.

I don't know if Jesus' purpose was to protect his people from getting hit more than once, or maybe more likely it was a way for the victim to nonviolently stand up to the authority of the striker and take away his perceived control over him. But without it looking like a direct defiance of the assailant's authority, because the victim was in all appearances looking like he was submitting.

Either way, we are called to be peace makers and to love our enemies.

Therefore, if the striker could only use the back of his right hand, when the other cheek was turned it would not be an option for him to strike the victim again with the back of his left hand.

Hey pm, interesting theory. For me, I am a bit more inclined to see a lesson about a willingness to be hit for the sake of a witness to others, even if it's just the person doing the hitting.

No one likes to be hit. It's completely unnatural. All of our natural instincts tell us to flinch or to put our hands up as a block or to duck etc. The idea of just standing there and taking ANOTHER hit is totally ridiculous, but I believe it is this totally unnatural response to violence which IS the witness in itself.

Why would someone just willingly stand there and take more abuse when he/she could run away, or cower, or try to block etc? What motivates this person to do something so unnatural?

The idea of "turn the other cheek" communicates that, not only are you willing to be hit again, but that you are actually INVITING another hit. It is the REASON for why someone would do something so unnatural that justifies the pain of being hit again.

I believe that reason is that we WANT people to understand that we are willing to die for our faith. We want people to understand that this physical body means very, very ,very little in comparison to eternal life.

They can beat us all they like, and, if it takes beating us to death to prove the point, it's still worth it.

Originally Posted by Joshua,David

Jesus brought a sword that a man's enemy are those of his own household.

I see it like this. Lets say you live in America. And you don't like the direction the government is going in... (sound familiar?)

You're watching all the RICH company owners & politicians cash in on peoples homes being foreclosed on. You're out of work. And your about to be homeless.

BUT... your father, or brother works for the government or police dept. And tells you tuff luck, do what the government tells you to do.
And they don't help you at all... in fact they take up for the government instead of you.

So then... things start getting so bad that Martial Law is coming. And your dad or brother says protecting the politicians that run the government are more important than you.

So they start arresting peaceful protesters, and beat unarmed civilians with sticks.

But you trust in Jesus (not in some government), and know in your heart they are wrong. At what point do they become your enemy?

This is just one instance for Mat 10:36 "a mans enemies will be those of his own household"

Originally Posted by my_little_pony

Hey pm, interesting theory. For me, I am a bit more inclined to see a lesson about a willingness to be hit for the sake of a witness to others, even if it's just the person doing the hitting.

The idea of "turn the other cheek" communicates that, not only are you willing to be hit again, but that you are actually INVITING another hit.
I believe that reason is that we WANT people to understand that we are willing to die for our faith. We want people to understand that this physical body means very, very ,very little in comparison to eternal life.
They can beat us all they like, and, if it takes beating us to death to prove the point, it's still worth it.

I agree with everything you've said in your post. And as I said, turning the cheek to the oppressor is, like you said, INVITING another hit, yet at the same time resisting authority while looking like he is submitting to it. A master tactic by THE MASTER who told us to do it!

Originally Posted by my_little_pony

Hey pm, interesting theory. For me, I am a bit more inclined to see a lesson about a willingness to be hit for the sake of a witness to others, even if it's just the person doing the hitting.

No one likes to be hit. It's completely unnatural. All of our natural instincts tell us to flinch or to put our hands up as a block or to duck etc. The idea of just standing there and taking ANOTHER hit is totally ridiculous, but I believe it is this totally unnatural response to violence which IS the witness in itself.

Why would someone just willingly stand there and take more abuse when he/she could run away, or cower, or try to block etc? What motivates this person to do something so unnatural?

The idea of "turn the other cheek" communicates that, not only are you willing to be hit again, but that you are actually INVITING another hit. It is the REASON for why someone would do something so unnatural that justifies the pain of being hit again.

I believe that reason is that we WANT people to understand that we are willing to die for our faith. We want people to understand that this physical body means very, very ,very little in comparison to eternal life.

They can beat us all they like, and, if it takes beating us to death to prove the point, it's still worth it.

Hi Pony. I agree. But I think that turning the other cheek is a form of rebellion. It says to the oppressor that you have something that they cannot take away. It says that even though you can't control what happens to you, you can control how you respond to it. And that kind of rebellion is more dangerous than rebellion that fights fire with fire.

I also saw the movie about Gandhi and what I liked about it was that he totaly turned the tables on the British. They tried to make him out as a dangerous criminal, but through his discipline and self sacrifice he showed how barbaric and unfair the colonial system was and claimed the higher moral ground.

Originally Posted by Beans

Now here's some interesting scripture:


Like Joshua,David said Jesus has to come first. I don't think Jesus really wants us to actually HATE our families,, but they sure will throw that in your face when they see that they no longer take first place in your priorities. But I think that is a legitimate "sword" of division that Jesus calls us to bear (Luke 12:51-53).

I as well encounter hostility with my family. It's not that they don't love me... they don't love Christ and it's me they take it out on because I am one with Christ. I've been told I am part of a cult, I've been brainwashed, I need to quit copying what other people do... I've heard a lot. Do I hate my family? no. But they hate Christ and I hear about it all the time.

Sweet. Yes we have, insight into the thoughts of others, an explaination if you will. Since Jesus went through the torment from is community, family and friends he could honestly tell us what to expect.

In John we are told we will be hated too. It was told to us in Matthew, simply because we put the the Lord and our Father's kingdom before all else. If they (our families and friends) understood they would be greater people if they accepted what we understand. It would much easier for everyone. But not those that claim to love us because they know better. Well these warnings were given to us so we will be prepared for the resistance we will face.

Of course he came to bring peace; it is our attitude and ability to take things out of context and preach on it that Jesus understood all too well.

As I tried to say before, to me Jesus meant when he said he did not come to bring peace , but he came to bring a sword simply means to me that he is looking ahead.

We would all have peace and harmony if all would follow him, but as not all will follow him, naturally this will bring conflict, resentment, and maybe even downright disrespect and even death by another family member.

So Jesus did not come to create disharmony and to actually bring a sword, he simply means that our own unwillingness to accept him will create the sword. That man himself will be the one to create the disharmony.

It is not so bad, not everyone in my family believes in God, but if handled intelligently and with compassion and not taken personally hey, they learn, you cannot tell Kit anything he will just grin at you and tell you that you are wrong. That little puppy you liked so well the other day is one of Gods creations........can you make a puppy??
With time opportunity for discussion will always open up, at first they scoff, they push, they tell you that you are an idiot.......slowly they wonder why does he persist?? And one day, the non believer becomes the believer.

To me to turn the other cheek is kinda like this. It is not about being a doormat or to turn away as a coward, or to accept without challenge.

Say I and you are in town and a person is holding up a sign, will work for food, or some such. So I do a U turn and find a safe place to park and to talk to him and tell him to come to the grocery store with me and I will buy him some food. I have no work but I will buy you something to eat............and you attack me. You tell me I am being taken advantage of, or you tell me hey I am in a hurry and you should have just given him some money, let him use his time. At this point it is a challenge of personalities. So I will accept the challenge but be somewhat of a pusher also. I will tell you that even if I am being taken advantage of, the intent is true, I will tell you that your time is not a concern, what are you going to do when you do get home, watch T.V.?? I will attack you, but not in a violent way. I will intend you no harm, but I will not back down on my convictions. Each time you challenge me I will simply tell you that you are wrong and should show compassion. That your statement of you are in a hurry and do not want to waste time is selfish. I may even walk more slowly.........I will challenge you . So to me Jesus is saying, turn the other cheek but by doing so with no intent of malice also show them the other cheek and challenge them. If they want to fuss with you for a mile, give them two. Or.........a politician says, poor me, we are having to do so much more with so much less. We lost our cost of living raise, and this is totally unfair. ......without violence I will challenge him and tell him you should be happy to have a position, as we the citizen are now living with very much less to support your very much more and your unwise use of our money. If he wants to push a mile, I will push back for two.........

As for violence and self defense, naturally revenge or to do after the fact or take justice into your own hands is wrong, and will only lead to not only violation of Gods morals, but also violation of the laws of men and resulting punishment by mans laws.

But if a thug is beating a old lady to steal her purse, or is in the act of taking a child, or is committing a robbery, or is beating on my door to do harm and mayhem, ........well I have only one thing to say, they had best be right with God, because I will send them to see him.

I have as much compassion for those who commit violent crimes and due physical harm to others, as I do for a cockroach. During the commission of the crime. But God says to leave justice after the fact to himself. To not seek revenge or to walk into sin yourself to seek revenge. That to me is Gods message, do not exact revenge, leave that to me. No matter how unfair you think it seems you can only hurt yourself with actions after the fact.

So to act in the actual time of the event, to or for self defense is fine, to act later for revenge is not good. This is both against the law of God and the law of man. It does no good in any event as the act or situation has already occurred and you cannot change what was and what is.

Hope I made some sense.

Kit

Originally Posted by PerfectIsJesus

I as well encounter hostility with my family. It's not that they don't love me... they don't love Christ and it's me they take it out on because I am one with Christ. I've been told I am part of a cult, I've been brainwashed, I need to quit copying what other people do... I've heard a lot. Do I hate my family? no. But they hate Christ and I hear about it all the time.

Hi Perfect.
That's exactly right. It's not that our families don't love us. In fact it is the opposite, they fight so hard against Christ in us, because they love US (i.e. our old self) and they start to panic when they see radical changes in us.
I think what can often give our families the FEELING that we don't love them is because we love Christ MORE and also because of the fact that we have become part of a SPIRITUAL family, that may or may not include them.
Then on top of that is the fact that throughout your childhood you accepted them as the ultimate authority on right and wrong, and now your are turning to a new authority for the answers. I can understand it being kinda hard for them to swallow.
Anyway, I think that the bottom line is that (in our hearts) we should not "hate" anyone, but that from our family's perspective we could look like we are treating them poorly because of our efforts to follow Christ and I think that the spirit of Luke 14:26 is that we should not allow that to stop us.