Originally Posted by dannibear

God does not send us to hell, we send ourselves.
God is not only a loving God, but a just one too.
Would it be just to let someone who rejected God into Heaven,
while others picked up their cross and followed Him, getting persecution
along the way? God makes it clear that we do have free will. But every
choice has a consequence, whether it be good or bad. God makes
it clear also, the effects of the choice made. We choose eternal life
or hell. Not God.

Amen Danibear! AMEN

Originally Posted by dannibear

God does not send us to hell, we send ourselves.
God is not only a loving God, but a just one too.
Would it be just to let someone who rejected God into Heaven,
while others picked up their cross and followed Him, getting persecution
along the way? God makes it clear that we do have free will. But every
choice has a consequence, whether it be good or bad. God makes
it clear also, the effects of the choice made. We choose eternal life
or hell. Not God.

I always find it interesting when writers seperate love and justice as if they are two seperate things (GOd is not only a loving God but a just one too). ITs almost as if the writer is saying not only is God a loving God but he is not a loving God too!!!!
Yet for me justice is love. It is another aspect of that divine totality that we call love.
THe writer goes on to say God does not send us to hell we send ourselves to hell. THe analogy that pops into my mind is of the rapist who puts a knife to my throat and forces me to have sex with him. the logical conculusion now is that i chose to have sex with my rapist.
Obviously not only is this absurd but again way way out or kilter with the teachings of christ.
The question is also asked would it be just to allow the unbeliever into heaven and of course the obvious answer to such a question is yes yes yes. For a loving mother would not reject her son simply because he may not have loved her. A loving mother knows that there is nothing that her young child can do that would stop her loving him. Such are the bonds of parenthood and in continueing this analogy so too are the bonds of Gods love. THis is why we say God is love. The bounds of this love knows no limts

Nobody can know for sure they are going to heaven, right? WRONG
I guess we will have to wait till we get there tofind out, right? WRONG
If my good outwieghs my bad I will probably go to Heaven, right? WRONG

Our soul is the only possession that we have that is eternal. Read Luke 16: 19 - 31 do not trust what man tells you trust God's word, that is what is important.

Read the word of God it is truth, God cannot lie.
I ask this one question tho if every one is going to get into Heaven as you have proclaimed, WHY did JESUS DIE FOR OUR SINS _ He died for everyone that only through Him we may be forgiven by faith and have eternal life in Heaven. ( John 10:9 , John 14:6 )

When at the judgement seat God ask's ' What did you do with my son, Jesus Christ, He gave His life for you, did you receive Him or reject Him.

May the word of God speak to you

Originally Posted by palms25

I always find it interesting when writers seperate love and justice as if they are two seperate things (GOd is not only a loving God but a just one too). ITs almost as if the writer is saying not only is God a loving God but he is not a loving God too!!!!
Yet for me justice is love. It is another aspect of that divine totality that we call love.
THe writer goes on to say God does not send us to hell we send ourselves to hell. THe analogy that pops into my mind is of the rapist who puts a knife to my throat and forces me to have sex with him. the logical conculusion now is that i chose to have sex with my rapist.
Obviously not only is this absurd but again way way out or kilter with the teachings of christ.
The question is also asked would it be just to allow the unbeliever into heaven and of course the obvious answer to such a question is yes yes yes. For a loving mother would not reject her son simply because he may not have loved her. A loving mother knows that there is nothing that her young child can do that would stop her loving him. Such are the bonds of parenthood and in continueing this analogy so too are the bonds of Gods love. THis is why we say God is love. The bounds of this love knows no limts

The difference here is, God isn't holding the knife to your throat.
If you "have sex" with some one, that's your free choice. Not God's.
He didn't make you do it.

The Bible says a man who doesn't punish his son doesn't love him.
Just because you love someone doesn't mean there isn't discipline from time to time. Also a son that continually rejects his father and continues to go his own way, .. all the love in the world won't save him from where he ends up.

Originally Posted by B-A-C

The difference here is, God isn't holding the knife to your throat.
If you "have sex" with some one, that's your free choice. Not God's.
He didn't make you do it.

The Bible says a man who doesn't punish his son doesn't love him.
Just because you love someone doesn't mean there isn't discipline from time to time. Also a son that continually rejects his father and continues to go his own way, .. all the love in the world won't save him from where he ends up.

I sorry you seem to have missed the point. The analogy with the rapist may seem tame compared to what some hold to be true of GOd. THe rapist threatens death. God (according to some) threatens eternal damnation, most would choose death anyday.
However i digress, i would be interested so see the quote that you refer to about a man who doesnt punish his child not loving him.
But yes i agree we can never know for sure where a child who does not love his father may end up. THe point being that the father will not stop loving that child no matter where he ends up.
and so it is with God. The good news is that there is nothing we can do to thwart the love of God. IT is guarenteed it is non discriminatory it is unconditional and it is ever lasting.

Originally Posted by palms25

I sorry you seem to have missed the point. The analogy with the rapist may seem tame compared to what some hold to be true of GOd. THe rapist threatens death. God (according to some) threatens eternal damnation, most would choose death anyday.
However i digress, i would be interested so see the quote that you refer to about a man who doesnt punish his child not loving him.
But yes i agree we can never know for sure where a child who does not love his father may end up. THe point being that the father will not stop loving that child no matter where he ends up.
and so it is with God. The good news is that there is nothing we can do to thwart the love of God. IT is guarenteed it is non discriminatory it is unconditional and it is ever lasting.

Prov 3:11 My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof,
Prov 3:12 For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.
Prov 13:1 A wise son accepts his father's discipline, But a scoffer does not listen to rebuke.
Prov 13:24 He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

You are correct about the love of God. He always has it for us. However the love of God is NOT the Salvation of God, a totally different thing entirely.

Satan walks the earth, and he conquers.

The lack of discipline to children result in a modern world like we have today.

Today a child is very sassy at school, and tells the teacher they can just stuff it and that they do not have to do what they are told and with the modern mindset of the world they are supported by the world. For they know if the teacher challenges them that the teacher is now punished and from the parents to the school officials it is hands off. Do not strike the child, to not yell at the child, do not day anything to the child, instead call the parents and have them deal with it. Thing is the parents are also of the modern mindset and now resent the teacher and the time needed to actually deal with it , and so now see the teacher as a problem.............they ignore the fact their misbehaved child is the problem.

I grew up in a different time, not so long ago actually, but I was and I still am very, very strong willed. If I slice the seats on the bus , which I did do once in school with my new pocket knife. If you talk to me about it, and sit me in the corner for 30 minutes to think about my deeds, hey, I just got away with it.

My father blistered my tail for that one, took my new pocket knife away from me and I was impressed not to do such things. He also explained the need for respect for the property of others and many things, but it was all remembered by the warming up of the tail. Lol!

I learned to be respectful to others, I learned many things and to help others, to not lie, if I told a lie I got another tail warming. Lol!

Did I love my father, well............not growing up, I feared him. But you see love is also of respect. I fully respected him. I knew exactly where I stood in all things. If I was good I got a smile and a hug, if I was bad I got a tail warming. Once I obtained the age of around 25 I found that my father was very wise. At this point the love for him came to the surface and the respect and thanks were realized.

I will tell you that God rewards those whom do as he wishes. As when my father became sick with a brain tumor, it was only about 48 hours from the onset of the sickness to his death. He did not have to suffer , or become confined to a wheelchair , and I simply told God ........thank you very much for not making him suffer. Thank you for your mercy upon him. This is what love with respect to Gods way does for you.

I now look at my grandchildren and I cry. They are the products of the modern way, the modern way of discipline and they know, that if Grandpa warms their tail, they can run to the school and report Grandpa and Grandpa will end up in jail. So the world has taught them the way of conquest and how the Prince of the Air has slowly taken simple discipline of love away from all. So now they fight and fuss with each other, they stand and lie to my face, they are totally lazy and do nothing, ........but I do what I can within the confines of the modern world. They are a credit to many......but still they are very sinful and it is allowed by the world and now not only allowed but demanded by it.

So today we have children who know they can use the system against their parents, the school and against all figures of authority.

So you have a new puppy. He is so cute, furry and warm. It smells like a dog, and has a cute black nose and licks your face. It is always happy to see you. And you love the puppy. But if the puppy pees in the house do you say.......do not pee in the house or do you take a rolled up paper and pound his ears with it?? About twice and soon the puppy is standing at the door saying I want to go outside. The puppy learned from his warming of the tail.

Kit

Originally Posted by B-A-C

Prov 3:11 My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof,
Prov 3:12 For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.
Prov 13:1 A wise son accepts his father's discipline, But a scoffer does not listen to rebuke.
Prov 13:24 He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

You are correct about the love of God. He always has it for us. However the love of God is NOT the Salvation of God, a totally different thing entirely.

Thanks for putting up those quotes as i requested, and just as i thought not one of them talks of punishing a child. For punishment is cruel, and ...... well punishing. let us take time to correct kand teach our children discipline and even reprove of certain behavours but let us not punish. FOr as you have pointed out the bible doesnt mention this in the quotes you have posted. and surely if GOd loves us he will certainly save us. although i am not sure what from

Originally Posted by palms25

Thanks for putting up those quotes as i requested, and just as i thought not one of them talks of punishing a child. For punishment is cruel, and ...... well punishing. let us take time to correct kand teach our children discipline and even reprove of certain behavours but let us not punish. FOr as you have pointed out the bible doesnt mention this in the quotes you have posted. and surely if GOd loves us he will certainly save us. although i am not sure what from

You seem to be so wrapped up in this all love but no discipline concept that you don't see that the verses DO talk of correcting children.
Everyone else can see the same. You say that God could never punish because in your words, its 'cruel and well....punishing.'
God's love is perfect but anyone who truly loves their children will show them they way they are supposed to go before they become
rebellious.
The letter to the Hebrews has a remarkable passage that spells out the true contours of punishment and discipline rooted in God the Father’s true and vigorous love for us:⁵ And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
⁶ because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”<sup>[a]

7</sup> Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? ⁸ If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline —then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. ⁹ Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! ¹⁰ They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. ¹¹ No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
¹² Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. ¹³ “Make level paths for your feet,”^[b] so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. (Heb 12:5-13)

Albeit necessary to be harsh, such as to wake up lukewarm and fake Christians to the fact that Christianity is to some game to be taking lightly, A majority of those interested in Christianity are swayed by acts of kindness, and through teaching, backing up the claims of the Bible. The point is, sometimes harsh words are necessary, sometimes it's a hinderance.

Kind words can likewise be a hindrance. Salvation has never been through empty words, but repentance of one's sins and trusting in Christ. If one believes he or she is being kind by leaving out repentance, then he or she will have to give an account for it, and if that person is saved, then he or she will be embarrassed to see the souls he or she condemned to hell by purposely avoiding the topic of repentance. The key is, is that the Christian teaches both repentance and surrender to the Lord, and the one receiving the message both believes and repents of his or her sins.