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Originally Posted by SaulC76
Thank you for your response. Read Rev. 20:4-6. This explains that those who have overcome the beast have part in the 1000 year reign of Christ. As you can see from verse 4 and 5, these are not only souls that are alive at His coming, but that have died over the eons in Christ. You must note that these people are either A) martyrs for Jesus and/or B) overcame the beast. According to v. 6, these are the ONLY ones to take part in the 1000 year reign. According to v. 12, the rest of the dead are raised AFTER the 1000 year reign and are judged according to their works - these would be those who A) died and went to hell (v. 14) and B) died before the Christ (v. 15) but are written in the book of life (like Abraham or Moses).
Now, keeping this in mind, you must either be part of the 1000 year reign of Christ (dying in Christ and THEREBY overcoming the beast) OR be a part of the book of life (lived before Jesus but believed in the salvation of the Messiah and lived according to the Law.) What are you seeing here?
I want to take a minute here to explain something about the beast that a lot of people have a hard time with. The beast is not one man. I know, I know, "it's a number of a man, though!" Read the original text. "Man" in this verse (13:18) is "anthropos" which is a derivative of anthropology and means "mankind" or human being. Contrast this with "arrhen" or "arsen" which means "male" - a clarification of a distinct, individual man. Why would John not write arrhen over anthropos if he were talking about a distinct individual?
Also, let's look closer at the beast and see how it is possible that it is an individual: 13:2 "like unto a leopard and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as a mouth of a lion.." Contrast this with Daniel 7 and you see the same imagery, which is known to be Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. How is one man capable of encompassing these awesome world powers of the past? 13:3 "...one of his heads as it were wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed..." How can a man be wounded to death and then live, excepting in the case of miracles of God? Further, how is "one of his heads" consistent with one man? 13:7 "...and power was given him over all kindreds and tongues and nations..." If a man is given power over ALL of these, he must've lived through ALL time. Sound impossible yet? Don't believe "all means "all"? Ok, read on... 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him WHOSE NAMES ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD." (emphasis added) Why would John say something like this if he didn't mean it? "ALL... SHALL..." -- This is a verse with magnitude. This is absolutely saying that those who DO NOT worship Jesus DO worship the beast. Moving on, to ch. 17:8, the angel says "The beast that thou sawest was and is not...and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." 17:9-17 goes on to explain about the seven heads and ten horns which are upon the beast that they are kings. How is one man 17 kings? Is there any doubt anymore that the beast is NOT a man? The beast is a multi-faceted creature, as the imagery conjures and the prophecy states. To say that the beast is one man is a bold-faced lie. There is no evidence to support this claim. Iron sharpens iron as much as Scripture sharpens Scripture - if Scripture is not supporting Scripture then the INTERPRETATION of Scripture MUST be false.
I have heard the Nero theory. It is obviously not plausible. Rome, however, is a part of the beast. It is one of the seven heads. Rev. 17:10 - "...five are fallen, one is and the other is not yet come..." There is little room for doubt when looking at the imagery and consistency of the beast format.
Finally, as far as the 666 literal number, one must remember that this is the "number of his name"... not the beast itself. Remember, the beast is a multi-faceted creature... it is fallen powers, it is current powers, it has a number and a mark and an image. I believe, as I've said before, that the number is written as an arrow pointing back to Solomon. Is it pure coincidence that "Here is wisdom" would introduce the sentence introducing the number of the beast? Is it pure coincidence that Solomon is most known for his wisdom and gold... 666 talents of it? Is it worth mentioning that Paul stated "For the love of money IS the root of all evil..." (I Tim. 6:10 - emphasis added) - that is a very powerful sentence... Could you believe that overcoming the "number of his name", if that truly meant the love of money, could really mean "overcoming the love of money"? After all, doesn't every country - past or present - mint its own currency? Didn't Christ - after asking "whose image is this?" - say "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"?
Sorry, I do go on and on... Again, thank you for your response and I encourage you to read Revelations symbollically... remember that this is a SPIRITUAL PROPHECY. Literal interpretations aren't consistent within symbolic text. In other words, when John is describing the beast we see one ugly, weird look-ing thing rising out of the sea. We know that this won't literally happen. Yet, for some reason, we automatically go to literal interpretations of things like receiving a mark in the forehead or a wound to the head. Revelations is highly symbolic and spiritual. Old symbols have been reused and symbolic clues have been given to support new prophecy. Also, this book MUST be read with a spiritual mindset that knows, appreciates and recalls all other Scripture. This CANNOT be read alone and hoped to be understood. God bless you in your search for truth - and always seek Him first!
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Saul,
Again, I say that's a fascinating perspective about Solomon. I agree with you that the Book of Revelation cannot be understood unless reading the entire Bible. The Bible interprets itself, and if one reads only select texts, they are trying to see the entire world through a pinhole. For example, Gen. 3:15 is the first prophecy about Jesus being born of a virgin; yet many don't even recognize that.
I do have a question... since Revelation was written to instruct a specific generation in a specific time in future history, what does your understanding suggest that generation do?
And I'm not sure I understand why, in your opinion, John would have called that endtimes system "Nero Caesar" specifically?
About Daniel's vision compared with John's description of the beast, I think everyone reading these texts knows these are symbolic representations of real events and people as revealed by God (because He wants His people to recognize what will be happening at the time). Many of the symbols have been examined by biblical scholars and kooks over the centuries, each having their interpretations. This is the danger of
overspiritualizing Scripture that has very practical purpose. It opens the door to
individual interpretation. That is contrary to the nature of
TRUTH. Truth is not "open to individual interpretation".
Now, because these symbols represent events and people in the future, there are certain things that we cannot say for certain "this is the way it will be". But we can be certain that God's Word will come to pass. This world will come to an end. But before it does, humanity will develop a global governmental/economic system that is godless. But, to try to seduce those who are religious-minded, it will align with a one-world religion, and try to convince the world that the leader of this system is God among us. This world system will seem to bring utopia, to recapture Eden (paradise on earth). But this earth, while it is good in many ways, is not intended to be paradise, and its God who forbade re-entrance into Eden. We know for certain that this system will "be given power to make war with the saints" for 3 1/2 years. We can say for certain that this system will kill many who do not submit. Today, anyone who takes a stand for the Christian faith is considered at best a radical; but even often an enemy of
human rights and are societal outcasts. Jesus said it would be that way, and worse, for believers at the end of the age. As it gets tougher and increasingly more dangerous to be a real Christian, those who are not seriously sold-out for Jesus, loving Him more than their own lives and this world, will falter and just simply walk away. If the world offers religion that doesn't challenge us to be holy and serve Jesus even unto our death and allows us to flourish and love the things of this world (and the world already has such a religion), those who are
Christians but not "radical about it" will slide on over to the Church of the Comfortable, Convenient, and Casual. But I guess I'm preaching.
At any rate, we also can say with certainty that, at an appointed time that only our Heavenly Father really knows, Jesus will return. Every eye on earth will see Him coming in the clouds. Some will rejoice as the dead in Christ are raised to Him, and then those who are alive in Him at that time will be taken up into the heavens with Jesus. Others (actually, most of the world) will be terrified. Then God will pour out His wrath on the wicked world for 3 1/2 years. After at least 1,00 years of events here on Earth following the outpouring of wrath, God will judge all who have ever lived on the earth, starting with His own. The judgment of the righteous will be to determine our rewards, based on what we did with our faith. And the judgment of the unrighteous will be based on their response to Jesus salvation was offered to them (which, by the way, we are accountable for what we did about the opportunities God gave us to share Jesus).
And we can say with certainty that this world will pass away, and God will judge the prince of this world (Satan) and his faithful servants. And God will then reveal the new heaven He's been preparing for that specific time.
So, you see, Christians should not read Revelations with fear, nor superspiritualization. We should understand, with study and God the Holy Ghost's instruction, what God intends to do to purify His church. In the early church days, if you lied to the Holy Spirit, you dropped over dead. That was to keep the church pure. God allowed the Roman empire to persecute the church, killing multitudes of followers of the Way, and causing the faithful to scatter. That was the method of reaching out to the lost world of that time: God kicked the church out of their comfort zone (I'm convinced that's the most destructive place Christians can be), and they took their faith with them. Many reading this forum post would not be Christians, if not for that time of Roman persecution causing the church to scatter. When the nation of Israel was torn apart and for many centuries, there was no country of Israel, God always keeps a remnant of His people in the world. Then, in 1948, the prophesied return and re-establishing of the country of Israel. Then in 196- (oh my gosh, it just slipped my memory if it was '68 or '69!), the Jews took back Jerusalem and switched the capitol from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. This too was the fulfillment of prophesy, and in fact is designated in Scripture as a crux in history ("the end of the times of the Gentiles"). The next biblical age defined is "the end times". Many say that it began immediately at the end of the times of the Gentiles. I believe that's true. If that's the case, we are currently living in what the Bible calls "the end times" (notice its not "end time"). And if we are, then we are the generation and this is the time that the Book of Revelation was written for. The scroll is now open, and we are to read it with understanding. Come, let us reason together.
Wow, I can't seem to write a short post on this subject. Because every statement I make about what I believe requires explaining why I believe it. I did not come to these beliefs by any pastor, preacher, or teacher. Years of prayerful study. I've read several books with various interpretations, history, and I have researched the original languages of the Bible. But this belief I have is not solely based on any intellectual research and study. When God the Holy Spirit teaches me something, illuminating Scripture, I test it. Is it consistent with all Scripture (and yes, I've read the Bible several times over)? And, is it consistent with God's character and purpose? I test, because I know that I'm just as capable of being deceived as anyone else, and because I know that God will prove Himself and His Word faithful. God is not who I think or believe He is. He is who He is. And I know Him personally.
Would God allow His church to suffer tribulation to separate the marginal lukewarms from the 100% believers? Absolutely. He's done it before, and its conceivable He will do it again, to prepare His spotless bride.
Would God give permission to the devil to do signs and wonders (including raising someone from the dead) to deceive the world and test the the saints' devotion to TRUTH? Of course He would. He's done it before. God doesn't change.
I could go on and on (and already have). Most will probably see the length of this post and just bypass it. That's okay. It helps me to clearly lay it out there. I am thankful for this site and the opportunity for forums such as this. Never before in history has the entire world been so accessible for the purpose of the gospel! Its an exciting time we live in! We have been born and born again for such a time as this!